If a male has sex with a female who is drunk, normally we would call it rape because she's unable to give informed (clearheaded) consent.

But if he's as drunk (not clearheaded) as she is, is it still rape?

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You insist on avoiding my hypothetical by creating your own hypothetical.

If I thought it was intentional, I'd call it a strawman.

I'm not sure what part of what you just said is supposed to address the fact that you are still missing the point. No one said anything about harm. The question is: if two equally drunk people have sex, is it rape (keeping in mind that if one of them is drunk and the other isn't, it is rape)? I don't think it's possible for two people to rape each other simultaneously so, for me, the answer is that it's not rape. Every word of yours I've read in this thread has failed to address the question being asked.

If it was yoyr daughter or wife who woke up next to a guy she never would have slept with if the was capabke of makig that decision...it would be harmful. If you woke up with the taste of your friends penis in your mouth (something you never would have done if you werent drunk) there is harm. If yor daughter or wife got pregnant because of it? What if you woke up with a sexually repulsive woman you hated with her arms around you ad a used condom on your dick (you didnt initiate it or never would have let it happen if you werent drunk). And it turns out sheis pregnant? Or is your boss? Or your student? Or an enemy?

I tried to find a single, non-emotive, question here that I could answer, but I couldn't... So I've quoted the whole thing. The basic question I'm hearing from you is "but what if one party regrets their drunken decisions?". To which I reply, as I have already stated in my first post in this thread, If you can't live with the consequences of decisions made while drunk, then don't get drunk. Personal responsibility shouldn't be such a foreign concept.

you're probably think if sex happens then its a fun thing for both parties

Yes... consensual sex should be fun for both parties (despite being drunk). I feel sorry for your sexual partners if you think otherwise.

Yes it is. My understanding is that in most jurisdictions voluntary intoxication is not a defence; it is however considered a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing.

If getting drunk were a defence can you imagine how difficult it would be to convict someone?

As you point out... why does your question assume he raped her? If two drunk people have sex it is not impossible for the claim to be that she sexually assaulted him. Not all jurisdictions have gender based definitions of rape.

That's a legalistic answer, not a philosophicalk/ethical one.

Why would it indeed. Reread it. It assumed no such thing. The wording is...

normally we would call it rape because she's unable to give informed (clearheaded) consent.

So no assumption is involved, just the notion that many and perhaps most people (leaving myself out, so no assumptions) would call it rape as long as the female is intoxicated, and even if the male is equally intoxicated.

So, in the case of rape, is it or is it not a fully intentional act? or can an intoxicated male stumble into a rape unintentionally? If so, how can he be held to be more responsible than the female who gave intoxicated consent?

In a class on bioethics we found that women tended to sympathise with the victim and men had a more passive view on the topic. We all read a similar scenario about a drunken guy who has sex with a girl who is passed out (they've never kissed). The men were slightly sympathetic but mostly wrote it off as bad luck. We were then treated to a scenario involved involving a man and a kale friend: You've gone out with some buddies drinking. When you leave you are mostly drunk...in high spirits with your arms around each other unable to stand. As you walk home you tell your friends they are the best dudes ever patting them in the back and hugging them. Eventually you are only two, you and your friend (who happens to be gay). He helps you home while you say, I love you man...I mean it...you are awesome. You hug him like you have everyone all night in your drunken rediculousness. He asks if he can crash at your place and you say sure. He asks if he can crash on your bed and you're too drunk to think about the implications...you say whatever. You say once more "I love you man...you're the best bro and dude can have" though your words are slurry and you can barely keep your eyes open.

The next morning you wake up with a very painful rectum (iflts difficult to walk)...a used condom still in your anus full of cum and there is white sticky stuff all over your face and chest. Your friend is nowhere to be found.

Is it no big deal? Are you partly responsible for what happened? Imagine you barely know this guy...would you go to the police? How would you react if the police laughed and said "these things happen...what were you thinking letting your drunk gay friend crash at your place? You shouldn't have gotten drunk. You shouldn't have worn such a tight t-shirt" Maybe you thought you could let it go. But after you pull out the condom you see it is broken. Does thus change things? Is it a big deal now? Does his drunkenness excuse what your friend did? Is the fact that he was drunk excuse putting your life in mortal danger? Would you just say "hi" next time you saw this buddy? You spend the whole week in a lot of pain every time you walk. You ask your friend if he has STDs but he never talks to you again and wait in horror for blood tests to come in with horror. Do you honestly let it go as you were both drunk?

This reverse scenario changed almost every guys opinion in this class...especially after a girl asked what would be going through heir mind as they washed the blood and cum out of their agonisingly painful ass. When taken into consideration with the "drunk driving scenario above" the two holdouts finally admitted that one person is more responsible than the other.

Excellent example.

I HATE when that happens....


Are you the Poker or the Pokee?

Not even close to the hypothetical of the original post, which involved two equally drunk people and nobody passed out. 

I've never heard of a "kale fiend" and have no idea how this vegetable fits into the whole scenario.

Maybe if they are Kale, they'll lettuce have sex?

Toss their salad?

Squeeze their tomatoes?


People are still missing the point... Have you read my answer? Maybe consider updating the OP to be a bit clearer?


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