# Problems with Craig's first Law Argument and Cause

Me and my father were trying to figure out why no intelligent atheist has called out any christian on The First Law of Thermodynamics arguement? The first law (according to Wikipedia, however most definitions will tell you the same) "The law expresses that energy can be transformed, i.e. changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed.", should not be an argument FOR a god, but against it. How can a timeless, outside of the universe god create something which by definition cannot be created? We then understood that theists would say "He is god he can do whatever he wants." But that begs the question; If god is outside of space and time, then he is timeless and unchanging because change requires time. Then this means such a being would not be able to act upon something in the physical universe because to change and create, requires time.

Then this begs the question; How can the universe be caused then? All we know is the universe has been expanding for a finite amount of time. This does not mean it wasn't there before expansion; so without space/time expanding; There would be no cause because cause and effect occur within space/time. This led us to the conclusion that because cause and effect occur within space/time and require a flowing time stream; That the universe then should not have a cause it simply is? Why has nobody used this against Mr. Craig?

We are looking for criticism so please find the flaws in our logic.

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### Replies to This Discussion

Well, to be perfectly honest I understand your arguments and agree with them. :)

Theist logic is to point to the philosophical weak spots of science. However, in the process they forget that science requires evidence. The evidence is then proven by mathematics. The only thing theists need to do is to collect the physical evidence of a God and create an equation that makes P(God)>0.5, that no other exlanatory variable explains more of the empirical evidence at once.

I'm heading off for vacation, but perhaps I'll see if I can take an evening off to see if I can find any flaws. :)

The First Law of Thermodynamics has been brought up countless times to Dr Craig. Here is his most recent response in a radio show hosted by Kevin Harris, a Christian apologist and Craig cronie who pops up on T/A every now and again to borrow our brains in order to refine his philosophical wordplay.

I had forgotten just how physically unattractive this poor fellow is.

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