Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rick on October 10, 2011 at 9:48am

@Ed

Out of all of the things you could have chosen to illustrate how wonderful it is to live here, the immigrant example is by far the least convincing.

How would I explain the millions of immigrants who seek a better life inside the US? Simple: Location, location, location. When all that separates us from Mexico (for example) is an invisible boundary (and sometimes a physical one) and the only real deterrent once they get here is deportation, why wouldn’t they come? It’s not like most immigrants sit around and weigh their options… whether they would prefer the Parisian countryside, a quaint town on the Italian coast, or a cabin in Norway. They choose the US as a matter of convenience. I guarantee if Canada were closer they would all flock to Canada instead of the US. Why? Not because Canada is necessarily any better than the US, but simply because of the location and the fact that Canada is a developed country (just like the US) and can offer a better quality of life. When you come from nothing, even a marginally better existence can be worth pursuing. Remember, they live in poverty here too. It’s not exactly a glorious existence, only a more tolerable one.

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on October 10, 2011 at 10:09am

America has been the beacon of hope for people all over the world - including my parents who came to the United States as America has been the only country that has offered the opportunities for one to work hard and not give excuses and to be successful. No other country has offered the opportunities provided by our great country - and I am proud to be an American and to be a part of a western liberal culture that values freedom of speech and secular values. IT is in the framework of who we are as a people - a free people - that has made America such a great country; and this includes capitalism. These naive kids in the protests don't seem to understand these foundations are what uniquely makes us American - and still the best country in the world despite our faults.

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Permalink Reply by Rick on October 10, 2011 at 12:58pm

@Sassan:  Since when did this become a pissing contest? Any nation that claims to be #1, or that they’re the greatest, or whatever is extremely arrogant and disillusioned. It’s great to feel pride for ones country/ adopted country, but to claim superiority over any other modern nation is nothing more than willful ignorance and doesn’t do anyone any good. There are countries that rival us in jobs, health care, education, technology, etc. Who is to say that they are any better or worse than we are? Being different does not diminish the amount of opportunity or the quality of life. It’s like arguing about the best Rock band to ever exist, or the best way to prepare a cut of meat, or the greatest sports figure to ever live. While some are clearly better than others, once you’ve narrowed the field down there is no clear cut winner and all are viable candidates. It simply comes down to a matter of preference. Perhaps a Mercedes suits you while a BMW suits me.  

 

To dismiss protesters and say that they don’t understand American foundations is another attempt at willful deception. Fighting for a better vision for America is directly in line with the founding principles of our country. Just because you don’t share the same vision doesn’t make you right and them wrong, or vice versa. Just because we don’t agree on certain things doesn’t mean that we don’t all want the best for our country. While you shout from your soapbox, others shout from the streets. Different strokes for different folks. The pride you feel for the US is matched my millions of Americans. Embrace the differences and diversity and realize that too is part of what makes America great.

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Permalink Reply by Ed on October 10, 2011 at 9:29am

@ Matt

 

Patriotism is not so much about where you were born but rather where you choose to live. People that immigrant to this country can be some of the most patriotic citizens we have. The patriotism stems from our core beliefs in individual freedom and justice for everyone. The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights are all documents that people everywhere can appreciate and respect. But as Thomas Jefferson stated, our society should rightly expect our laws and institutions to evolve as we grow and reach higher understandings. 

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Permalink Reply by Alex Johnson on October 10, 2011 at 10:32am

South Park on ...isms

...isms are great for those who are rational, but in the hands of irrational it always leads to violence... No one answer, is ever the answer...

 

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Nationalism can no doubt unite a nation, but at the cost of alienating others... If we ever wish to unite this World, we have to get rid of things that segregate us in these small groups...

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Permalink Reply by Steve on October 10, 2011 at 5:58pm

This is why Patriotism to me is of little benefit.

Any mentality that separates people is a mentality

that offers no benefit to society in general. We all live

on one world, and are essentially ONE people with varying

societal differences. Even so we are all part of one race...

the human race.

 

Nazi's were patriotic as well. They loved their country

to the point of everyone else's detriment.

 

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Permalink Reply by Rob Todd on October 10, 2011 at 12:21pm

I don't see much difference between the government and the gangs here in America, so it's a little hard for me to have any pride in them. Also I believe that it is ludicrous that people have pride in a set of imaginary lines anyway.

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Permalink Reply by rhetrix on October 10, 2011 at 12:33pm

I think every country has made mistakes

 

it sounds like the flag symbolizes for you what you hope for the US rather than those shortcomings. . .but the fact that we can be honest about those failures allows us to grow and work to achieve those things we hope this country can become. . .it's about remembering that we aren't finished, it's a journey. . .

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Permalink Reply by Brian Stewart on October 10, 2011 at 1:38pm

Maybe I missed it; maybe it's to be read between the lines of most responses, but how do you define 'patriotism' and how would your govt define it? How would the conservative and ultra right wing define it vs the liberals? I suspect the term is often used to  mask actions that could qualify as  some -ism...Hitler was a patriot as an example...so was Pol Pot and on the other side Mandela....

 

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Permalink Reply by StarStuff on October 10, 2011 at 1:46pm

It's been my experience so far that people who complain most about their taxes are the ones who badmouth those who want to change that.  And when it changes, they'll enjoy the fruits of someone else's labor.

It's not until they have their homes illegally taken, had their pensions squandered by big banks and lose their jobs, some people aren't going to "understand".  Standing up against what you believe to be wrong, even if it doesn't get you your goal, is never a bad thing.  That's patriotism.

Armchair warriors who sit on their porches, screaming "Support our Troops!" and waving tattered flags aren't patriots, they're jingoists.

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Permalink Reply by Steve on October 10, 2011 at 3:47pm

Patriotism is only one step from nationalism.

There is a point that is too far. Usually it's when religion is wrapped in

patriotism that we see the ugliest it can be.

I agree to be proud of what American Ideals stand for,

but I disagree with anyone wanting to turn a blind eye to

the wrongs committed by religious righteousness and arrogant

belief that "their" country can do no wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Arcus on October 10, 2011 at 4:17pm

"Patriotism is only one step from nationalism."

Firstly, the statement is wholly incorrect - what about local patriotism? (Go alumni high school and/or college sports team). Secondly, there is immediately nothing wrong with nationalism - much like patriotism - but it can be misused to foster everything from racist ethnocentrism to right wing ultranationalism to left wing national socialism. The most common understanding is, however, a certain righteous pride in the achievements of the country/people/nation/etc with which you associate yourself with, commonly referred to as civic nationalism. This was fundamental to the nation state movements which changed the world in 1848. 

"I agree to be proud of what American Ideals stand for"

As you should be. Personally, I don't think Americas "stand for" whatever atrocities you have committed, rather you lament them (perhaps a bit too much and for too long after the fact..)

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