Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on March 18, 2013 at 1:54am

@Thomas Pickett - who wrote that, and who are they that anyone should listen to them?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Thom on March 18, 2013 at 1:57am

Not me, it's from the bible. I was pointing out his above statement as incorrect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on March 18, 2013 at 2:15am

Whew, thought for a minute there that we'd lost you to the Dark Side, Anakin --

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 18, 2013 at 1:46am

Out of proportion? People are fag bashed to the point of hospitalization or even death. People are harassed and condemned to the point of depression and even suicide. People have had their ability to form a family with the person they loved challenged time and time again. People have been cast as pedophiles and perverts. People have been disowned by their families and cast out from their homes, even as children.

Many modern Christians who view homosexuality as a sin will talk about how the above things are not true Christianity or state how these things are obviously wrong, yet they cannot see that they are perpetuating the problem themselves by perpetuating this sin myth. They cannot see that in many cultures, it is the supposed followers of Christ kicking up the biggest fuss in opposition. Obviously you have every right to hold and voice your views, but without a coherent or objective argument as to why it is wrong, and in light of the fact that your deity refuses to take the witness stand, we reserve the right to call bullshit. Sorry bud, but you're part of the problem. Minor or major? Why should I care?

But fear not. I forgive you for this sin. Try not to keep repeating it.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Professor Robert on March 18, 2013 at 7:25am

@KrisFeenstra: "People are ... bashed to the point of hospitalization or even death. People are harassed and condemned to the point of depression and even suicide. People have had their ability to form a family with the person they loved challenged time and time again. People have been cast as pedophiles and perverts. People have been disowned by their families and cast out from their homes, even as children."

That sounds like what happens to a lot of Christians in atheist and former atheist regimes like the Soviet Union, China, N. Korea, etc. 

Sometimes it's worth spending as much time examining our own arguments and biases as those of others.  Whenever we choose to stereotype another group, or blame the whole group for the errors of the few, don't we do exactly what you complain about here?  "Perpetuate the problem?" 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by kOrsan on March 18, 2013 at 7:31am

That sounds like what happens to a lot of Christians

So that makes it ok? Do you support school-shooters too because they were bullied?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on March 18, 2013 at 11:07am

@Professor Robert

There is no 'etc' there.  North Korea is not Atheist - in fact it is a theocracy ruled by their god.  As far as communist countries - please name the Atheist doctrine that proclaimed that Christians were an abomination deserving death?  Oh wait, Atheism has no doctrines and does not define 'abominations'.

Perhaps you should examine your own lies/arguments.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dr.Grixis on March 18, 2013 at 11:34am

Labels are not that useful, especially the "atheist" label is about as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop. Since it only means "a lack of belief in god(s)" it does not have any positive statement of belief/dogma. If being an atheist is somehow a philosophical (or even religious) ideology, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Instead of investigating further, people tend to be satisfied when they can put a label on a person, classify them and move on with their everyday life.

I find it kinda odd that you label these regimes as"atheist"as this only shows what they are not, in that sense a lot of countries could be considered "atheist" (if you were to think of secular countries as "atheist states"). Then again, I could just as well make a group for "non-Zoltarians" and it would be an equally valid classification, wouldn't it? 

This is the main problem when discussing matters of religion with a lot of theists, to "us" atheists the label "atheist" doesn't mean as much as it seems to mean to the theists themselves. This kind of baggage in terminology is endlessly enforced (on both sides) which seriously hampers a fruitful discussion. 

That being said, I find it despicable that people (regardless of their faith) tend not to examine their arguments and biases. In the end, the reason why people are opposed to homosexuality (for instance) is because they find it "icky", not because some supposed deity said so, but when push comes to shove, that is where theists hide when they are forced to argue. 

The problem being perpetuated is that people do not think for themselves, do not question their motivations and label others easily while thinking that the label holds some kind of meaning. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 18, 2013 at 11:56am

• I am not holding every Christian accountable for promoting homosexuality as a sin, but rather only those who promote it as a sin.
• My problem here isn't even the idea that it is promoted as a sin, but rather the "what's the big deal?" sort of attitude. It is a big deal, just as it's a big deal that I am fully "pro-choice" in the face of those who view abortion as murder. I can at least cop to the seriousness of my viewpoint in that light.
• I have always denounced the rationale behind such mistreatment and violence of other humans beings based on their religious views.
• Such rationale is not (correctly or incorrectly) derived from any codified aspect of atheism, largely because no such thing exists.
• Even if the above was not true and I was a hypocrite, this would in no way excuse the actions of either party anyway.

So Robert, thanks for the vacuous assumption that I have not examined my views, but your point doesn't hold.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Milos Cakovan on March 18, 2013 at 12:50pm

That sounds like what happens to a lot of Christians in atheist and former atheist regimes like the Soviet Union, China, N. Korea, etc.

None of those are "atheist" regimes, professor. They might have leaders that hold no faith, but that does not make the regime atheist. No one has ever killed anyone in the name of their lack of belief in gods. Plenty have, and still do kill in the name of their gods and religion.

Stalin was atheist, but was very good friends with the Orthodox church, since he is like a saint to them now. China persecuted imperialists, and christians are caught up in the mix. North Korea is not atheist at all. Their leaders are their gods. Or are you going to give us the old tripe about how atheists worship themselves.

Your particular group has persecuted others for the past 2000 years, and still does. Your church might not outright demand burnings at the stake anymore, but people still die because of their laws. Women and children are being killed for witchcraft, gays are being bullied to death, or outright killed, abortion doctors are being killed, and AIDS keeps on killing because your religious leaders threaten people with hell if they use condoms.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Professor Robert on March 18, 2013 at 2:56pm

I was apparently too opaque in my discussion.  I was really responding to this statement of @KrisFeenstra's:

"Many modern Christians who view homosexuality as a sin will talk about how the above things are not true Christianity or state how these things are obviously wrong, yet they cannot see that they are perpetuating the problem themselves by perpetuating this sin myth.They cannot see that in many cultures, it is the supposed followers of Christ kicking up the biggest fuss in opposition."

Now, when I offered the alternate case of the violent repression of religious adherents by nominally atheist regimes, what happened?

Well, many modern atheists started talking about how the above regimes were not true atheists, or state how these things (systematic persecution of Christians) are obviously wrong, yet they cannot see that they are perpetuating the problem themselves, by bashing all Christians for the failings of a few.  They cannot see that in many cultures it is the supposed followers of secularism kicking up the biggest fuss.

Does that make what I said clearer? 

I think I as a theist have to accept when you say that the religious repression that has occurred and still occurs in many cultures is not the atheism that you espouse, and that you would join me in condemning it.  Similarly, I think it's rational and fair for you to accord the same courtesy in reverse, and accept that those of us who know the tenets of our faith can say when someone is not truly following the faith or speaking on our behalf, and join you in condemning their actions.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 18, 2013 at 3:26pm

I was really responding to this statement of @KrisFeenstra's

Well, you've quoted it, yet it's highly questionable that you were responding to it.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 25
• 26
• 27
• 28
• 29
• Next ›
• Page