Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Professor Robert on March 14, 2013 at 11:52pm

I can understand the peeve.  The Catholic perspective would agree with you, actually.  We're all about working hard and doing good works as necessary.

At the same time, whether you attribute it to God or luck or some really fascinating genomic statistics, being born in the wealthiest country in the world is a heck of a starting advantage.  My guess is that you also weren't born into urban or rural poverty in the U.S., and that you received help and support from family, friends, teachers, community members and others along the way.

Recognizing those things in no way diminishes your hard work or accomplishments.

Permalink Reply by Real Life James Bond on March 15, 2013 at 12:03am

Actually I was born in New Zealand, my dad ran out when I was young to pursue work in the United States (he still stayed in contact), my mother basically raised me by herself and worked and maintained the house we had and made time for me (she was a hell of a woman). Any time my dad came back there would be violent screaming and crying and all that. I did poorly in school back then because there wasn't really anyone around to push me to do well. When I was 10 my father bribed me to come live with him where I was horribly miserable until just two years ago when I joined the military and got offered a scholarship (one which I risked everything to get from the military) to go to college on their dime for four years and become an officer. So no I wasn't quite as lucky as you may think I was.

Permalink Reply by Real Life James Bond on March 15, 2013 at 12:05am

And to clarify I am saying nothing bad about New Zealand, it is a wonderful place, but I wasn't born into the conditions you think I was.

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 15, 2013 at 3:23pm

@ Professor Robert

You should always evaluate claims independently, absolutely. 

That's why I am not a Catholic. God cannot be evaluated, and claims of its existence are dubious. Any claim which rests on God is highly problematic for rational scrutiny. Any claim which does not is certainly open for consideration, but without God, is it Catholicism, or just an ordinary claim?

I would just gently suggest that the claims you choose to evaluate should actually be the claims that the other group is making, rather than the claims that you are making.

I am not in the habit of making claims on behalf of Catholicism.

Catholicism does not hold that its curial officials and popes are anything other than ordinary humans, with ordinary human weakness and failings. 

I see where my words were misleading: 'merely human', yes? I was not implying that Church officials are super human, but rather that they (supposedly) have any keen insight into the divine. Worded differently, The moral teachings of the Church don't derive their ultimate authority from mortal minds, but rather divine inspiration and ultimately God.

Now, if a group is going to go around pedalling morality, the expectation should be either the rationale behind such moral convictions can explained, or failing to do that, there is demonstrable evidence that the moral code yields a superior result. 

I really haven't seen either done effectively, and yet the Church remains a broad, affluent, influential and vociferous institution. While it's certainly not the largest concern or the biggest blip on my radar, there is a point in time where one has to put up, stfu, or change. Change everything? No, it's not all bad, but if, as an example, Cardinals could kindly refrain from testifying in front of my senate on issues like same-sex civil marriage when they have not one shred of credible insight, that would be a good start.

Catholicism offers moral and social teachings that it would claim are worthwhile,

That's pretty soft phrasing. 

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on March 15, 2013 at 3:34pm

@MikeLong

Yes, but if someone claimed to run 500 kph, would you hold them to that?

Yes, but holding someone to a standard isn't necessarily a matter of my expectations.

I don't believe the claim, and will maintain my skepticism until the claim is verified, but if that is the standard someone wants to set for themselves, I will hold them accountable to it. I don't understand why I wouldn't or shouldn't. If they fail to meet the standard, that's their problem not mine. It's not like I needed to bank on its veracity.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on March 15, 2013 at 3:51pm

@Professor Robert

Catholicism does not hold that its curial officials and popes are anything other than ordinary humans, with ordinary human weakness and failings.

Is papal infallibility in matters of faith a human weakness or a human failing?

Permalink Reply by Milos Cakovan on March 18, 2013 at 12:36pm

I can't speak to this comedian you're talking about, but even back 500 years ago Dante in his Divine Comedy put a number of popes in hell in very amusing ways.  Even at the height of the Inquisition, we didn't imprison Dante.

They sure as shit wanted to.

A blurb in the biography of Dante...

"All participants in public life had to belong to a guild, so Dante joined the union of physicians and apothecaries. Soon, he was elected as a prior (chief magistrate) of the city. When the republic was again ripped apart by political turmoil, Dante chose the wrong side. His opponents gained control, and the poet-philosopher was charged (falsely) of hostility to the church, fraud, and corrupt practices; he was fined and barred from holding office ever again. When he refused to pay the fine, he was sentenced to death by burning. Dante fled the city."

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on March 18, 2013 at 3:18pm

RE: "When he refused to pay the fine, he was sentenced to death" - now THAT is really strict! I'm gonna have to look into sending in a little bit toward those overdue student loans --

Permalink Reply by SteveInCO on March 13, 2013 at 11:08pm

Your factual points are well taken.  (The claim that there must be something to the allegation simply because it was made is bullshit, as you point out.)

A lot of the hatred you sense towards the Catholic Church stems from the pedophilia scandal.  Well of course any organization as large as the Catholic Church will have its bad apples; the mark of an organization is what it does about the bad apples.  And the Catholic Church simply covers for the pedophiles.  Another large part is from them telling people in Africa to not use condoms, which has contributed to the AIDS epidemic and overpopulation.

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Permalink Reply by Professor Robert on March 13, 2013 at 11:46pm

"And the Catholic Church simply covers for the pedophiles."   Another person who believes that corporations are people too!   It couldn't be that some genuinely corrupt and disgusting prelates covered up for pedophiles.  It has to be the whole church.  

That's about as rational as saying U.S. Universities and everyone in them covered up for pedophiles because of Jerry Sandusky. 

Believe me when I tell you the fury within Catholicism over our pedophile supporters burns 100 times hotter than it does for outsiders, we just know the names of perpetrators.

As for Africa, I think you probably need to do a bit more research there as well.  The problems of AIDS and overpopulation are far more complex than what you suggest.  The Catholic Church at least has boots on the ground caring for those people; it's lost men and women to the Rwandan genocide just for trying to shelter the innocent.   What have we fat Americans done?

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Permalink Reply by RobertPiano on March 14, 2013 at 12:34am

we just know the names of perpetrators.

Yeah...Sandusky is in Jail you know...

AIDS and overpopulation are far more complex than what you suggest

You do understand how babies are made? You do understand how a condom works? Your sacrificial church thrives on suffering.

Since it's Pope Time again...Here is an example of the true nature of the catho-Lick church

Stephen (VI) VII ordered that the corpse of his predecessor Formosus be removed from its tomb and brought to the papal court for judgement. With the corpse propped up on a throne, a deacon was appointed to answer for the deceased pontiff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

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Permalink Reply by Stutz on March 14, 2013 at 2:44am

AIDS and overpopulation are complex, but that doesn't excuse the Catholic Church's position on the issue, which is incorrect, immoral, and manifestly NOT helping the problem.

What have we done? Massive foreign aid to Africa, not to mention the thousands of Americans with boots on the ground in Africa at any given time, of all religious and secular backgrounds.

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