Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Torrey Garcia on December 27, 2011 at 10:35pm

fortunately enough there are about 5 quintillion universes under the laws of sting theory so that works in our favor

Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on December 28, 2011 at 1:33pm

The scientific record (95 % of all members of the National Academy of Sciences lean toward atheism) provides clear and overwhelming evidence of our evolution through natural selection over millions of years.

Adpopulum fallacy.....

Adpopulum fallacy is predominate  when a theist attempts to convince an atheist that God exists. It's the.."well, all these people belief in god, so you should to". In regards to the original statement, if you like we can list cosmologists and their beliefs. 

I'll start...

Carl Sagan -- Atheist

Stephen Hawkins - Atheist

Now your turn....

Permalink Reply by Angelo on December 28, 2011 at 10:30pm

I'll start...

Carl Sagan -- Atheist

Stephen Hawkins - Atheist

Now your turn....

I have better arguments.......

Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on December 29, 2011 at 1:08am

Again. avoiding the issue. Not surprised. 

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 7, 2012 at 5:37pm

Hey Angelo,

 

This entire argument is fallacious. Here's an excerpt from On the Means and Methods of Mass Deconversion:

 

We imagine a bucket of marbles, say a few billion of them, and we paint each one with a unique number so that each can be uniquely identified. We choose integer multiples in the form of a count, beginning with 1 and going in order to the highest value we have. Now, suppose we take a number of marbles much smaller than that total, say 10. Now, let us randomly pick those 10 marbles and place them in another bucket, call it the bucket of Intelligent Designs. Most people can clearly see that the probability of those 10 marbles having values within an interval of, say, 100, is exceedingly slim. This is the Intelligent Design argument. It is nonsense. And the reason why is that we have no way of knowing how many marbles were placed in the Intelligent Designs bucket. So, if we placed every marble from the starting bucket into the Intelligent Designs bucket the probability would then be exactly 100%; that is 100% that human beings were created by natural events only.

Let us tighten this up.

Let us begin a causality train whose program will be to generate a set of dependent variables, effects, from a set of independent variables, the causes. To get the set of effects A and the set of causes B which caused the set A, A and B must contain members that are not strictly arbitrary. We can define a rank n order m metric tensor, ₵, of “causality” generators; each denoted ϕ¹₁, ϕ¹₁ , … , ϕⁿ_m. Then for each ϕⁱ_j we can define a domain and range for each; corresponding to the sets B and A respectively. Now, let it be observed empirically that there exists a set a and b such that a ∈ A and b ∈ B; and both a and b contain one or more elements, that is:

r ∈ a ∈ A, s∈ b ∈ B and we guarantee that an enumeration of elements exists such that:

u < v.

where u is the enumeration r_u ∈ a and v is the enumeration r_v ∈ A.

If the generators ϕⁿ_m meet the definition of a function, that is, a rule that assigns to each element b ∈ B exactly one element ϕⁿ_m(b) ∈ A, then it is likewise possible to find a set of generators which also meet the definition of a function, δⁿ_m(s) ∈ a.

Now, we let the generators ϕⁿ_m and δⁿ_m be functions that strictly assign each element of its corresponding domain randomly to exactly one element in its corresponding range.

Then the probability that there exists a generator δⁿ_m is ∝ u / (v - u). However, the probability that there exists a generator ϕⁿ_m = 1.

QED.

In other words, appeals to beauty, order and the appearance of an intelligent design, as just one example of this proof’s application, to suggest, imply or otherwise provide evidence for an intelligent actor as the cause thereof is nonsense. Let’s go back to the marbles to explain why and try to state this proof in English since we promised no advanced math here.

In the marble example the starting bucket represents all the possible independent variables of any nature or “universe”; that is, the environment variables in which, for example, something like Deoxyribonucleic Acid was first “created”. What Intelligent Design incorrectly assumes is that we are selecting only a subset of all possible independent variable values (physical properties of an environment) and placing them in Intelligent Design bucket (the thing so ordered and “intelligently designed”) for which we require the filling of a similarly narrow band of marble number values. This is not reality. The reality is that we must consider the full range of values of independent and dependent variables, which results in a 100% percent chance that intelligent design can generate something of any complexity. The probability of producing something that we subjectively call complex is proportional to the dependent variables associated with that complex object (to be exact, the dependent variables that are responsible for the complex character of the object) and all independent variables, which are essentially infinite, and thus also 100%. So, it is 100% probable that nature generated those complex structures. Ignorance and superstition never quits.

 

- kk

Permalink Reply by Ed on December 27, 2011 at 5:40pm

I'll answer for him - death sucks.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on December 27, 2011 at 7:39pm

I'll answer for him - death sucks.

absolutely. The idea i will be one day death, and my existence will not be anymore, is terrifying. And makes our existence senseless, if its true. 

Permalink Reply by Angelo on December 27, 2011 at 10:28pm

"And makes our existence senseless" 

Not. at. all. 

One day, we will all be dead. If by then all human kind is gone, what we have done, or not done, is irrelevant. In the end, if God does not exist, our existence is void and completely senseless. And it will not matter, if you lived a morally good life , or not. If God does not exist, this existence is the only one we have, it doesnt matter for the afterlife. Therefore, egoism makes the most sense as way of life. Just look for your own . 

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 27, 2011 at 10:36pm

One day, we will all be dead. If by then all human kind is gone, what we have done, or not done, is irrelevant. In the end, if God does not exist, our existence is void and completely senseless. And it will not matter, if you lived a morally good life , or not. If God does not exist, this existence is the only one we have, it doesnt matter for the afterlife. Therefore, egoism makes the most sense as way of life. Just look for your own .

That's the old "if God doesn't exist, there's no justice in the world" argument. That argument states the HOPE that God exists and pretends it's a proof. 

Me, I've accepted that as time goes by, who I am and how I behave won't matter, but in more local time, it does matter.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on December 27, 2011 at 10:49pm

Me, I've accepted that as time goes by, who I am and how I behave won't matter, but in more local time, it does matter.

Indeed , it matters. If your worldview is right, Self sacrifice to help others is dumb, egoism is the best choice. Do whatever you want to please yourself, don't care about others. You live only ones, and only this life. Ones its over, its over. And if you did bad things, there is no skydaddy to charge you.....

Permalink Reply by Rocky john on December 27, 2011 at 10:59pm

If that is how deep your morality runs then maybe it is best you have an imaginary friend to keep you in line. luckily most of us here are grown up enough not to need threats of hell to keep us moral and good.

out of inteest sake. who would you consider the more moral person. the person who is moral because he wants to be rewarded( heaven) or is afraid of being punished (hell) or the person who is moral because it is the right thing to do

Permalink Reply by Unseen on December 27, 2011 at 11:28pm

You wrote "imaginary friend." Didn't you misspell "imaginary fiend"?

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