Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bert V. on January 13, 2012 at 8:08am

Ok, now we have it. I think I know why you did not reveal it so quickly. Let me focus on a few of those descriptors. If he is "limitless in authority", and "immutable"  again I ask why would he "create" anyone such as myself who would not believe in him? And he "is righteous and just" and "good", so how could a just and righteous god allow for the suffering of purely innocent beings such as newborns? I could go on and on, but perhaps you can start with these two questions.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 13, 2012 at 4:48pm

Let me focus on a few of those descriptors. If he is "limitless in authority", and "immutable"  again I ask why would he "create" anyone such as myself who would not believe in him? 

because God wanted creatures with free will. the alternative would be robots, which are programmed to do always gods will. so love would be impossible. 

And he "is righteous and just" and "good", so how could a just and righteous god allow for the suffering of purely innocent beings such as newborns?

i will not answer such questions by myself. 

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Permalink Reply by Bert V. on January 13, 2012 at 5:39pm

Wow that link is such garbage:

"As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so."

Incredible.

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 14, 2012 at 3:16am

Hey Angelo,

God is the supreme being of the universe.

Of 'this' universe? So, he is not the supreme being of anything super natural?

He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin ...

What is righteous? What is just? What is sin? How does "He" have a gender if he has no physical properties we can measure?

he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless ...

What form does he take in nature? No form? What form does he take in super nature? What is super nature, or anything outside nature?

...eternal...

How can a physical quantity be eternal? What does it mean for a physical quantity to be eternal?

...he is the truth.

What is truth?

nonspatial, nonmaterial...

If he is an "unbodied" 'mind', whatever that means, and "nonspatial" and "nonmaterial"; how can he exist? How can I verify that he exists under those conditions? What does "self-existent" mean?

Your "definition" defines nothing.  He either exists solely in this universe or he doesn't. If he exists to any degree outside this universe then adequately defining 'him' requires that you define that super natural universe. What is the "super natural" universe?

- kk

Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on January 13, 2012 at 3:21pm

But doesn't God also have a plan for us..? ..We can not be destined for something and yet have free will. The two concepts can't coexist. 

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 13, 2012 at 4:50pm

God has a plan for each one of us. But we can find out and  live that plan only, if we freely accept to believe him, and search for his truth. Otherwise, you will live your life not according to his will. And that choice is not the best one. Gods will is always the best for us. 

Permalink Reply by james d on January 13, 2012 at 4:57pm

wow, evangelism 101! you get a C+ for effort, and a D for originality!

we would love to accept your thought, but it is a concept that many christians do not actually think is found in your bible! you may need to expand your reading material a lot as there are branches of christianity, all as valid as yours since they all claim the same god and the same christ as savior, that would disagree with you 100% on the statement you just made. go study the works of john calvin or john weseley if you would like some differing ideas or study armenianism which is another theological system that you could believe and still be a christian..

to say you have the ONLY claim to the truth of the bible is arrogant and baseless and the reason so many 'denominations' and sects of christianity all fight to make their claim on truth the ONLY true interpretation of the scriptures.

come back and try again, we may continue to humor you a bit more, at least you actually wrote out an answer for us and didn't ask a question!

i have one for you!

why is YOUR interpretation of scripture the ONLY one that we should accept as true?

cheers!

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 13, 2012 at 5:01pm

why is YOUR interpretation of scripture the ONLY one that we should accept as true?

i have not made that assertion. And you have not given me yet ANY good reason to believe, strong atheism is compelling.

Permalink Reply by james d on January 13, 2012 at 5:24pm

ok, fine, you didn't say that your version of christianity is the ONLY one, but if i asked you i think you would say that we should all follow the flavour of christianity you believe or you would not be a follower of that particular point of view! so, logically, i can assert that you think you have the only correct version available. if you don't think that your version has 100% truth, does that mean you change churches everytime someone at the next church 'reveals' a new truth from your bible? no? you stay where you are? why? because you think that you have the ONLY correct understanding of the scriptures!

did you read the link i sent you on strong atheism? if not, here it is again!

"• Don’t ‘strong atheism’ and ‘atheism’ mean the same thing anyway?

No. Atheism (also called “weak atheism”) is a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. It is a personal proposition, that in our minds one particular belief does not exist.

Strong atheism is the position that we should affirm the non-existence of a god or gods. It is a position about reality, that there are no referents to “god” out there. Both therefore pertain to different aspects of the issue."

found here

so, when you show us the evidence that you claim to KNOW your god exists, we will accept it! until then,

a bit further down that page...

"• You can’t prove anything.

How do you define “prove”? The dictionary defines it as “To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence”. By that standard, a great number of scientific and technical propositions are proven. “There is no god” would be one of them.

If by “prove” you mean “establish the truth with 100% certainty”, then you’re asking for the impossible. We can’t do that, and neither can you. But that doesn’t mean we don’t know anything."

so, i offer you this, IF you use the bible as any kind of reference to KNOW your god, then you are starting from a very flawed position, therefore, any claim you make about your god is based on a false premise and thus, is not worth actually proving the negative in any way! you claim to use science to prove your god did it all, yet the first book of  the bible is so inaccurate and flawed that it was rejected by science long ago.

here is one on the flood - cheers!

and here is a great general article on why humanists and atheists reject your bible outright! - more cheers!

so, when you come on here looking for POSITIVE proof of atheism yet reject all the proofs and comments directed at that question while holding on to your bible after all your other arguments fail and still assert that you don't want us to attack your bible after you continue to quote from it and offer us man's theology on the book that has been shown over and over again to be a work of men, for men with NO divine intervention, from the god you agree can not be positively proven to exist in the first place!

so, we continue to listen patiently as you continue to say we have offered you NO arguments for the positive atheism you seek.

so, i offer you one more thought from that first website, which you love to copy and paste, so i figured it would make you feel more at home if i did bit for you!

i copy and paste!!

"• Aren’t universal negatives impossible to prove?

It is usually assumed that universal negatives cannot be proven. Indeed that is the main complaint heard about strong atheism: that it cannot by definition be proven, because it is a universal negative. Usually this is associated with a pretense of omniscience. The argument is that to say that something does not exist, one needs basically to “look” everywhere, thus be omniscient.

But on the other hand, we know that no contradiction can exist, because of the laws of logic. But we can make up contradictory entities. For example, the expression “married bachelor”. A bachelor by definition cannot be married, therefore the expression is contradictory. When the term being used is contadictory, the universal negative is true automatically, like “There is no married bachelor”.

All that is needed to prove such a negative is to show that the concept in question is meaningless or contradictory. For example, an argument often used against the existence of hypothetical gods is the Argument from Evil. In this case, the evidence is that a god must be omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, and the fact that evil exists. We do not need to know everything to know that evil exists and compare this with a god’s infinite attributes, and yet it is sufficient to argue strong atheism, because it shows that gods are incompatible with our universe.

Another means to prove a universal negative about the non-existence of X consists of finding a positive which opposes X. For instance, science disproved the existence of phlogiston by demonstrating the scientific fact that combustion is sparked by the existence of a substrate combined with oxygen, and therefore not by phlogiston.

It is therefore basically a fallacy to say that universal negatives cannot be proven. Indeed that is the main role of logic: proving universal negatives to remove all contradictions from thought. It would be surprising if universal negatives couldn’t be proven.

“There are actually two ways to prove the nonexistence of something. One way is to prove that it cannot exist because it leads to contradictions (e.g., square circles, married bachelors, etc.). The other way is, in the words of Keith Parsons, “by carefully looking and seeing.” This is how we can know that such things as the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, the Abimonable Snowman, etc. do not exist.”
-Jeffery Jay Lowder, in “Is a Proof of the Nonexistence of a God Even Possible?”

In fact, the scientific method only admits for universal negatives – in science, you can only falsify something completely, not confirm it completely. Something is judged to be true because it stands to the test of falsifiability extensively enough to be unassailable. But failing one single test disqualifies a specific principle from being accepted."

i hope you actually take the time to read through some of the material i have offered you! there is a lot of good information that may help you understand the atheist position a lot better than the narrow 'god hater' stance you seem to cling to so tightly!

cheers!

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 13, 2012 at 5:59pm

ok, fine, you didn't say that your version of christianity is the ONLY one, but if i asked you i think you would say that we should all follow the flavour of christianity you believe or you would not be a follower of that particular point of view!

No, i did not say this. I respect the diversities. There are literally thousands of different denominations, and each one has different practices. Some believe in a old earth, other in a young earth. No problem with me. What binds us togeter, is our faith in Jesus Christ, as our Lord and savior. 

because you think that you have the ONLY correct understanding of the scriptures!

There are core issues of the bible, that are not subject of different interpretations. Either Jesus Christ is the lord, and our savior, or he is not. If he will come before, in the middle, or after the big tribulation, is however a secondary issue. Just to give a example.

you claim to use science to prove your god did it all, yet the first book of  the bible is so inaccurate and flawed that it was rejected by science long ago.

 and you know that how, exactly ?

here is one on the flood - cheers!

there exist various interpretations, old earth creationists, and young earth creationists. The flood story is not evidence in  my view that the bible got it wrong.

and here is a great general article on why humanists and atheists reject your bible outright! - more cheers!

Its very easy to beat on the bible. More difficult it is, to present a consistent alternative. Do YOU have one ? 

so, when you come on here looking for POSITIVE proof of atheism yet reject all the proofs and comments directed at that question while holding on to your bible after all your other arguments fail and still assert that you don't want us to attack your bible after you continue to quote from it and offer us man's theology on the book that has been shown over and over again to be a work of men, for men with NO divine intervention, from the god you agree can not be positively proven to exist in the first place!

I don't disagree, that there are issues, which are difficult to understand. But you need to consider the whole picture. There is a lot of evidence that the bible is true, too. 

for example :

Extra Biblical Literature Confirms Scriptural Reliability

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t318-extra-biblical-literature-conf...

Archeology proves the historicity of the bible is true 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t190-archeology-proves-the-historic...

Evidence of Noah's flood

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t307-evidence-of-noah-s-flood

more :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/f6-bible-christianity

i hope you actually take the time to read through some of the material i have offered you! there is a lot of good information that may help you understand the atheist position a lot better than the narrow 'god hater' stance you seem to cling to so tightly!

thats not my view. I think each person has individual reasons for not believing in God. I dont like generalisations.

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 14, 2012 at 3:21am

Hey Angelo,

 

What binds us togeter, is our faith [in a man we can provide no evidence for having existed] as our [undefined] and savior [from something undefined].

 

- kk

 

Permalink Reply by james d on January 16, 2012 at 10:25am

Angelo

"What binds us togeter, is our faith in Jesus Christ, as our Lord and savior."

there are some sects of christianity that do not accept the 'born again' aspect of fundamentalist religion, such as the catholics and others who view salvation much differently that each other. therefore, this statement is NOT an accurate one in regard to christian belief systems. you should do a bit more research on what the christian churches actually teach. the division between many sects such as the baptists and the pentecostals is very wide and 'theologically' exclusive... which is not good for the 'united in christ' mantra you are claiming.

"There are core issues of the bible, that are not subject of different interpretations. Either Jesus Christ is the lord, and our savior, or he is not."

and since you have neither proven the bible to be accurate nor provided any proof your jesus actually existed, we shall say he is not until you can prove he does! that goes the same for his 'father' the 'holy spirit' and lucifer as well!

"Its very easy to beat on the bible. More difficult it is, to present a consistent alternative. Do YOU have one ? "

actually, yes, i do. about 14.5 billion years ago, there was an event that we are learning about that defined the universe as we know it. billions of years later, humans began to walk the earth and for about the past couple hundred thousand years, we have form societies that ebbed and flowed out existence, most of which created myths that we no longer accept called 'religion'. these gods, all of which you reject outright with very little reason while clinging to your god, which you admit you can't actually prove either. we are born, we live, we die in a world of wonders and beauty. as a species, we are destroying the one vehicle we have to further our survival because, for the most part, cultural and religious differences tend to drive people apart, as even your own religion drives wedges between people who believe in the same god. Do you support homosexuals and gay rights? No? well, there as groups such as the United and Anglicans that 'love jesus' and disagree with your interpretation of your book! Are they christian? they claim to be! are they correct in how they interpret the bible? they claim to be and would also challenge you to prove your intolerance of them in the name of your god! i could go on, but the point is, with NO god, my life has meaning and purpose, and i live my life to do no harm! a point of view many christians should adopt!

"and you know that how, exactly ?"

because the facts back up science, not your bible!

you quote a lot of creationist friendly websites and accept them as 'fact' when the science found there is not accurate and speculates based on the premise that the bible is true from the outset and their 'research' was done to prove the premise! try looking outside your narrow world view and the 'scientists' who seek to prove false ideas with more false ideas! you may learn some truth!

cheers!

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