Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on January 13, 2012 at 10:50pm

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKowan --

Permalink Reply by Kim on January 13, 2012 at 11:58pm

If an eternally existing god did create the universe, then when did he make the time to create the universe?  Confused?  I'll explain.  If god's existence was eternal before he created the universe, he would have never gotten to the point of creating the universe.  Here's an illustration of what I mean:

Suppose I told you that if you read the bible for an infinite number of seconds, I would give you $1.  Would you ever get the $1?  Of course not....the amount of time before I gave you the dollar would be an eternity.  Yet, you are saying that after an eternity of existence, god created the universe.  How is this logical?

Also, in reference to your idea that morality came from god, specifically the biblical god, I have to disagree based on what I have read within the bible.  The god of the bible, according to its very contents, did NOT want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil.  He FORBADE them to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.  He punished them and all their descendents for having this knowledge and banished them from the garden.  Which, this whole concept is odd as HE placed the magic tree in the garden and KNEW they would eat of it, and also knew that billions of his "children" would writhe in eternal flame eventually.  Yet he still chose to put the magic tree in the garden anyway.  Very strange god you believe in.  He:

• didn't want us to have morality
• cursed us for stealing the morality he didn't want us to have
• killed himself to reverse the curse he put on us for stealing the morality he didn't want us to have
• and now expects us to give him credit for our moral sense. 

Extremely comically strange, wouldn't you agree?

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on January 14, 2012 at 2:19am

Kim - excellent line of reasoning! I may steal it!

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
in-His-own-image.com

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 14, 2012 at 2:58am

Hey Kim,

 

If an eternally existing god did create the universe, then when did he make the time to create the universe?  Confused?  I'll explain.  If god's existence was eternal before he created the universe, he would have never gotten to the point of creating the universe.

This is a good point. It's another example of what happens when we don't define our terms adequately. We don't even have a good definition of the "god" Angelo is referring to. What's more, infinity doesn't have any physical meaning (it is rejected by physicists whenever it appears as a description of any physical quantity). So, to talk about an undefined "god" existing outside of the defined universe (in undefined territory) for an undefined amount of time is ludicrous, but that is what adherents end up doing every time the word "god" slips out of their mouths.

 

The inconsistencies in the two creation stories are legion and leave all kinds of odd conclusions lingering about who "Satan" really is.

 

- kk

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on January 14, 2012 at 10:16am

Actually Kir, "Satan" doesn't appear in either creation story - many assume that the walking, talking snake was Satan, but nowhere is it stated. Personally, I've always believed it was the Geico gekko, replete with his Ricky Gervais accent.

In relation to Kim's point regarding time - Uncle Al proved that gravity can warp time, and that time is indivisible from space, hence it must be thought of only as space/time. Within the singularity that became our universe, both space and time were so - if not infinitely warped, then at least distorted beyond any concept around which we can wrap our Cro-Magnon minds - hence for any purpose, both ceased to exist. Time and this universe began simultaneously.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 14, 2012 at 7:27am

If an eternally existing god did create the universe, then when did he make the time to create the universe?  Confused?  I'll explain.  If god's existence was eternal before he created the universe, he would have never gotten to the point of creating the universe.  Here's an illustration of what I mean:

Suppose I told you that if you read the bible for an infinite number of seconds, I would give you $1.  Would you ever get the $1?  Of course not....the amount of time before I gave you the dollar would be an eternity.  Yet, you are saying that after an eternity of existence, god created the universe.  How is this logical?

Is "Timeless" Divine Action Coherent?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t374-is-timeless-divine-action-cohe...

The Creator may be conceived to be causally, but not temporally, prior to the origin of the universe, such that the act of causing the universe to begin to exist is simultaneous with its beginning to exist.

Contemporary philosophical discussions of causal directionality deal routinely with cases in which cause and effect are simultaneous; indeed, a good case can be made that all temporal causal relations involve the simultaneity of cause and effect.

He FORBADE them to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.  He punished them and all their descendents for having this knowledge and banished them from the garden.  Which, this whole concept is odd as HE placed the magic tree in the garden and KNEW they would eat of it, and also knew that billions of his "children" would writhe in eternal flame eventually.  Yet he still chose to put the magic tree in the garden anyway.  Very strange god you believe in. 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/destined.html

The assumption that God could just put the good people directly into heaven seems to be valid for God, but has some problems when applied to humans. For some reason, skeptics leave themselves out of the equation. They want God to run the thought experiment and put those souls who would make the right choice (believe in Jesus Christ) directly into heaven and not even create those who would reject Him. The problem is that God would then be liable to the accusation of rewarding some people more than others, since, for those who go to heaven, rewards appropriated on the basis of good deeds done in life³ (although the good deeds do not get you into heaven). Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards to believers? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before? God could be considered to be unjust, since His actions would not be based upon choices made by real characters. Would God just put those fake memories into their heads? If He did so, God would be creating deceptions, which contradicts His perfect character.

When people think deeply about their "perfect" plan about what God "should have done," they realize that there are logical problems. What most people would create, as god, would be robots, since they would have no choice at all. Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship. So it would be with the robots that skeptics would send directly into heaven.

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on January 14, 2012 at 10:25am

Angelo -"Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship."

I swore not to reward you with the attention of any more of my comments, but you just crossed a line! I LOVE my Mac and my Mac loves me!

Awww, it just flashed a big heart on the screen! See?

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
in-His-own-image.com

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 14, 2012 at 3:27am

Hey Angelo,

 

How can something that has no defined time interval of existence be present in a universe that is time finite? These statements are nonsensical pablum.

 

- kk

Permalink Reply by Calpurnpiso on January 13, 2012 at 11:16pm

Angelo wrote:

"I completely agree. But i did not say that i believe that God came from nothing. I believe God as a eternal being, without beginning, and without a end."

God came from the BRAIN, but the brain came from nothing & something, existing at the same time & in different places while non existing.. Quantum mechanics.

The scientific fact is that the BRAIN is the creator of the mind composed of atoms which in turn are made out of energy Essence of 11 dimensions that come in and out of existence, ( Quantum mechanics) space & time came from nothing and from something existing simultaneously...since ignorant ChristPsychosis infected imbeciles are unable to under stance science due to their brain malfunction...the concept GOD was invented to explain it. This is simply sign of mental dysfunction. The Universe is outside ( the cosmos) as well as INSIDE our skulls, the BRAIN, which are nothing more that the neuronal connections which are MORE numerous that stars in the universe. This is a scientific FACT...so people that believe in god have a neurological problem not unlike schizophrenia..for GOD is NOT.Here is a Universe from nothing..based on PROVEN science..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Permalink Reply by Calpurnpiso on January 14, 2012 at 1:01pm

Angelo wrote:

"the assertion " there is no evidence for God " , which atheists repeat like a mantra, is empty , and faulty. 


Sorry uneducated fool suffering from ZombieGodSyndrome. The TRUTH, that due to your Neurological disorder you fail to see is that:

THE BRAIN IS THE CREATOR OF THOUGHTS ergo GODS and other IMAGINARY friends. ANY SCHIZOPHRENIC has FAITH & BELIEVE his/her Imaginary friends i,e GODS, demons, angels, et al are REAL just as you do. These DELUSIONS produced by MALFUNCTIONING BRAINS are at the ROOT of ALL religious beliefs. making RELIGION nothing more than ORGANIZED SCHIZOPHRENIA.

For the UMPTEEN TIME, facts talk bullshit walks. PROVE to me you are a BELIEVER in Zombie Jesus by submitting to a BRAIN OPERATION. This will prove to you the BRAIN is the CREATOR of GOD, so since a brain OPERATION removes the THOUGHT CONCEPT IDEA of God, this PROVES God does NOT exist....stupid mentally handicapped fool.

Were you dropped when you were a baby for this will explain your cognitive dissonance & blindness to reality. Your Schizotypy is becoming more & more obvious, this disorder could become full-blown and you could end up like Jim Jones, Koresh, Doe of HEaven's Gate, & many people that I have studied suffering from schizophrenia. You are in DENIAL as are ALL schizophrenics and many HIV+ folks.

You are BLIND to reason unable to see we are in the 21st Century, where the science of NEUROLOGY, clearly PROVES the BRAIN is the organ that CREATES the Bizarre Metamagical Beliefs of GOD. 
You are a sick man, Angelo and don't know it. You are as sick as is the POPE and ALL EDUCATED people on this planet that BELIEVE in the Imaginary friend GOD ( it has as MANY names as the human BRAIN can invent). Only children & the ignorant have an excuse.

Sorry Angelo but you have NO LEG on which to stand. Facts of TANGIBLE REALITY will confirm it, as well as a BRAIn OPERATION. So, please LAND. You do not stand a chance for I'll smack your fairy tales infected brain with FACTS.

Again, save your brain from the ZombieJesus delusions, which are nothing more that fairy tales accept as TRUE only by children & mentally sick folks. Eat datura flowers, you'll see GOD, angels, talking snakes, resurrecting zombies that save with blood "going to holy city appearing unto many"  (MATT 27:52-53 ) 

Want me to PROVE this is true? I know how to prepare the mixture.....if you decided to write a bible ( Angelo Version) which I KNOW you will, since the sight of the LORD Zombie JEsus & angels is so peaceful & awesome...you'll have an URGE ( as the ancient Gospel writers did and also Joseph Smith) to grab a PEN & put down messages of the GOD flowing in the synaptic array of your Brain...lol..

Like that say, put up or shut up because I can PROVE you are ChristPsychosis infected NUT.

Here are some neurology FACTS:  

"Religious Factors and Hippocampal Atrophy in Late Life"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.00...

Yes Angelo YOU DO have a hippocampus, and IMHO it is malfunctioning by creating an influx of chemicals ( not unlike those found in Atropa Belladonna, ergot, Ayahuasca & other alkaloids). Sorry man, your ZombieGodSyndrome can get worse as you age...trust me, I KNOW what I'm talking about, since neurology research clearly proves it. I'm simply trying to help you, thought in your case I KNOW you need ziprasidone & other chemicals to help balance your cognition. In your case your Brain is behaving like a person that stutters & repeats sounds. Neural  I see this in your posts which suggests you do have a faulty precuneus among other bad neural disruptions since EVERYTHING in the brain is connected.

Please see this:  http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/129/3/564.abstract 

I will not cut & paste this because in your ZombieGodSyndrome inducing touches of mild  paranoia schizophrenia, you'll USE THIS as an excuse to DEVIATE from the FACTS I present, focusing on ME the messenger. IOW, you'll sick brain will DEVIATE from the discussion ( Cognitive Dissonance).

This happens to ALL people of Faith ( the Hidden Schizophrenia CreatorGOd Syndrome) which constantly deviate when confronted with a TRUTH that scare the shit out of them...the FACT there is no god & the ONLY Life After Death they'll get is BACTERIA in ....worms, insects, flies, maggots dinning & having awesome FUN on their remains....WOW the TRUE Life After Death the Ignorant Stupid Demented IMMORAL, Sadomasochistic GodSyndrome infected fools do not see.
GodBelief is the worst of ALL mental disease...since it is NOT seen,

Sorry truth hurts Angelo but please let me know if you want any help. I'll suggest few mentally healthy aka atheist psychiatrists then Neurologist to address your Disorder.

Do not fear the truth. AWARENESS of BrainCreates THOUGHT is the ONLY way you could overcome ZombieGodSyndrome.

Calpurnpiso. 

 

Permalink Reply by Seasidechap on January 14, 2012 at 3:19pm

As a new member, can I ask a simple question?

From looking through this thread, it seems pretty obvious that Angelo is a Christian and is here to try and find an audience for his beliefs. As someone who as spent far too many years trying to argue with believers, I've come to a simple conclusion. For those believers that are totally entrenched in their beliefs and are just looking for any opportunity to prosletyse, it's a waste of time arguing with them. You'll get nowhere.

This thread seems to have gone on for over 70 pages. Why are you giving this guy so much of your bandwidth?

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on January 14, 2012 at 3:45pm

I think, in this case, most people will continue on in this thread for their own entertainment.  The analogy I generally use for threads like this is that it's a lot like hitting a tennis ball against a brick wall; it's not a game you can truly win or lose, but you might stil have a little fun and improve your technique a bit in the process.

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