Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 3, 2012 at 8:43pm

despite that hudge number, chance live to arise by chance remains vanishingly small. 

Permalink Reply by James on January 3, 2012 at 9:43pm

The thing is, that amazingly unlikely odds don't make something untrue. What were the chances that my parent would live where they did, meet, get married, have me, then have my brother, move when they did, but the house they did, raise me in a way that I would be able to receive the education I did, get the job I did, meet my wife, buy the house we did and get married when we did? When you look at the number of people in my parents and my generations, the number of cities, the number of houses in the world, the number of days in the year, etc the odds of me living the exact life I have is amazingly low. But I lived it non-the-less. Life on this one planet actually isn't all that surprising when you consider all the galaxies there all, each full of stars with the possibility of harboring planets. Under that consideration, I feel life it is rather less unlikely that the recipe worked out right somewhere (at least once, and possibly more). The presence of a low odd situation doesn't prove a deity must have done it though. The fact of life, simply proves that we are alive and with the odds in mind, it just proves that we are quite lucky indeed.

Oh, and while I have your ear...

Some us us (myself included) have stated that we don't believe, yet are open to all the data from both sides. In a way, we admit we could be wrong, but recognize that the data at hand heavily favors the conclusion that we're. So Angelo, I ask you this. Do you admit that there's a chance that you could also be wrong about you god belief?

(my apologies if you answered this prior and I missed it)

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 3, 2012 at 9:51pm

 Life on this one planet actually isn't all that surprising when you consider all the galaxies there all, each full of stars with the possibility of harboring planets.

http://www.reasons.org/philosophyreligion/worldviews/anthropic-prin...

In the 1960s the odds that any given planet in the universe would possess the necessary conditions to support intelligent physical life were shown to be less than one in ten thousand.5 In 2001 those odds shrank to less than one in a number so large it might as well be infinity (10^173).

consider that in the whole universe, there is estimated to exist 10^80 atoms.....

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 3, 2012 at 9:53pm

So Angelo, I ask you this. Do you admit that there's a chance that you could also be wrong about you god belief?

I absolutely DON'T THINK so. God's existence for me is a FACT.

Permalink Reply by James on January 3, 2012 at 11:22pm

For some reason, your replies below have no reply button (damn Ning) so I'll leave them hear.

In the 1960s the odds that any given planet in the universe would possess the necessary conditions to support intelligent physical life were shown to be less than one in ten thousand.5 In 2001 those odds shrank to less than one in a number so large it might as well be infinity (10^173).

consider that in the whole universe, there is estimated to exist 10^80 atoms.....

You still miss the point. The fact that there are low odds doesn't prove something false, or require a supernatural cause.The thing is, you also have just as amazing odds for creating any specific planet that you want. What are the odds that a planets exactly like Venus form as such?

But if you want to play the odds game, isn't you (or any god) also exceedingly improbable. At least for life on planets, we have date and at least one example. With gods, we have no evidence and no examples.

Permalink Reply by James on January 3, 2012 at 11:26pm

So Angelo, I ask you this. Do you admit that there's a chance that you could also be wrong about you god belief?

I absolutely DON'T THINK so. God's existence for me is a FACT.

Okay, so how do you determine it is a fact if there is no evidence? Or if you do have factual proof that there is a god, that do share. I have no doubt that you feel very strongly that there is a god or think you know that there is a god, but without real proof, you really don't KNOW. But now I must ask what you are trying to gain here is if you aren't open to that fact that you could be mistaken. Such would make you close-minded and disinterested in any viewpoint different from your own, and certainly not open to considering what we have to say. If that is the case, I can only assume that you are here to try and tell us we're wrong, and that all our attempts to explain the errors in your thoughts and explain our own were almost a total waste of time. But on;y almost, since I can hope that there were more open minded peoples reading this thread, or people on the fence that actually did approach this with an open mind and willing to learn. At the very least, I hope that we've shown them where the arguments you provided fail, and helped them better understand this beautiful world and life.

Permalink Reply by Artor on January 4, 2012 at 12:42am

Except for the undeniable fact that life exists. Therefore the chances are 1:1. You have several million to one odds of winning the lottery, but somebody wins it on a regular basis. Does this mean that god is fixing the results? No, it means that you don't have even a vague understanding of probability.

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 7, 2012 at 8:19pm

Hey Angelo,

 

The universe most probably had a beginning, therefore a cause. The universe is finely tuned to life, therefore a tuner. Complex, specified codified information as contained in DNA comes always from a mind. Therefore, DNA was designed by a mind. Matter cannot produce something essentially different, like conscience, information, intelligence. biological diversity cannot be explained through evolution. Many biological systems are irreducibly complex, like the eye, blood , the cell. All this is positive evidence for a intelligent designer.

 

Also disproved by the third axiom. I am waiting for you to address the proof.

 

- kk

Permalink Reply by Akshay Bist on January 4, 2012 at 12:37am

yeah, with the multiverse theory, there are multiple universes, so it's not surprising that there is at least one universe with such constants.

And this still doesn't answer the burning question that you have been avoiding - How did a being complex enough to create & fine tune a universe with such precision come into existence in the first place? Whatever answer you give can also be applied to a creator-less universe.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 4, 2012 at 4:38am

Okay, so how do you determine it is a fact if there is no evidence? Or if you do have factual proof that there is a god, that do share.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t274-godels-incompleteness-theorem?...

 You cannot PROVE gravity will always be consistent at all times. You can only observe that it’s consistently true every time. Nearly all scientific laws are based on inductive reasoning. All of science rests on an assumption that the universe is orderly, logical and mathematical based on fixed discoverable laws. You cannot PROVE this. (You can’t prove that the sun will come up tomorrow morning either.) You literally have to take it on faith. In fact most people don’t know that outside the science circle is a philosophy circle. Science is based on philosophical assumptions that you cannot scientifically prove. Actually, the scientific method cannot prove, it can only infer.(Science originally came from the idea that God made an orderly universe which obeys fixed, discoverable laws - and because of those laws, He would not have to constantly tinker with it in order for it to operate.)

Ask all below , you wrote, to yourself , too :

 But now I must ask what you are trying to gain here is if you aren't open to that fact that you could be mistaken.Such would make you close-minded and disinterested in any viewpoint different from your own, and certainly not open to considering what we have to say. If that is the case, I can only assume that you are here to try and tell us we're wrong, and that all our attempts to explain the errors in your thoughts and explain our own were almost a total waste of time. But on;y almost, since I can hope that there were more open minded peoples reading this thread, or people on the fence that actually did approach this with an open mind and willing to learn. At the very least, I hope that we've shown them where the arguments you provided fail, and helped them better understand this beautiful world and life.

Are you open for a different standpoint ?

Permalink Reply by Jacob LeMaster on January 4, 2012 at 4:57am

More Copy paste bullshit. We aren't going around saying the Higgs boson exists until its proven.. Though gravity is based on mass and the higgs theoretically is responsible for mass and in turn responsible for gravity. I'm sorry you are such a weak theist that anything anybody tells that explains anything infinity has to regress back to your "god" but I guess that is the pathetic idealism you have to subscribe to.. yet you claim you are the one being open minded by being able to accept things without any definitive evidence.. Where as when evidence is provided we are able to accept. Your rhetoric is as pathetic as your idealism you have said nothing that we have not heard before.

Permalink Reply by James on January 4, 2012 at 9:21pm

You cannot PROVE gravity will always be consistent....

You can’t prove that the sun will come up tomorrow morning either...

What does that have to do with you claiming to KNOW that a god does in fact exist, and one specific god to boot? What we know about science is based on observable evidence. But science admits that our understanding can change as new information comes available. And no, I don't have to take it on faith that the sun will come up the next morning. I can trust that the sun will most likely come up though. This is because we can observe the cycle of day/night and have seen that it is a steady pattern. We also know why the sun comes up when it does. All that said, I will admit that while I expect the sun to come up each day, I can't claim to know it will. But what we do know, and from the observations we can make, we can trust that the sun will most likely rise as it did all the days before. Faith is belief without (and even in contrast with) evidence. We can prove that the sun did rise, and as I said prior, trust the sun will likely rise each day so long as conditions remain as regularly observed. 

Are you open for a different standpoint ?

Of course I am. I even said as such when I asked you if you were open to other standpoints. I once held a standpoint similar to yours, and now I hold this one. I am not wholly invested in a single standpoint. The simple fact is that I want to believe what is true. And that search for what is true is what has led me to where I am. With that said, I'm still open to other views. If something conflicts with what I think, I still want to hear it. I just ask that it makes sense. If it does, I'll revise my position. If it doesn't make sense of stand up to scrutiny, then I'll file it away under the various claims that failed. So you see, my debating your points has nothing to do with me simply wanting to confirm my beliefs no matter what, but is simply due me simply finding your arguments far from compelling. If you have an agreement that proves me wrong, I'll be embarrassed as hell, but I'll admit it and revise my stance.

Cheers!

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