Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 5, 2012 at 8:54pm

rather to go the usual rail road, and critizise my faith, how about to take the chance, and present a more convincing explanation of why there is something, rather than nothing ? lets see if your presented alternative holds on scrutiny and examination.....otherwise, your rants are worthless. you must present a better alternative to God, to be taken serious.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on January 5, 2012 at 8:59pm

What's convincing about the idea that some person created the universe? Remember, "theism" is the belief in a PERSONAL god, which means a belief that the deity is a person, not an abstraction or animal totem.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 5, 2012 at 9:03pm

What's convincing about the idea that some person created the universe? Remember, "theism" is the belief in a PERSONAL god, which means a belief that the deity is a person, not an abstraction or animal totem.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t5-arguments-for-the-existence-of-god

The cause must be personal because an impersonal force would be deterministic and mechanistic, not possessing free will. A mechanistic being only operates according to the programming it received from something else. But if the cause of the universe received programming from something else, then we have again not provided the answer to the cause of the universe. We have just found a middle-man. The cause had to make a choice to create and only beings who are personal can make choices.That description fits best to the God of the bible.

Permalink Reply by Kim on January 5, 2012 at 11:21pm

How does that fallacious argument of personal cause best fit the God of the bible?  What about the Hindu god?  Why not Thor?  Why not Allah of the Koran?  After all, the creation story of the Koran is that of the bible as Islam is an Abrahamic faith.  Why not any of the other gods of history?  How do you know that it is not a god that has not yet revealed himself to mankind?

You see?  The same way you *know* it was not Thor, Allah, Krishna, Xenu or any of the other countless gods of history is the same way we feel toward your god.  If you can understand how "strong atheism" regarding Zeus came to you, then you can understand how "strong atheism" regarding Yahweh came to us.

That is, unless of course, you actually really *do* understand and are actually using this WHOLE discussion as an opportunity to proselytize. 

Just saying...

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 5, 2012 at 11:25pm

Just saying, isnt it ?? this thread is not about to justify , why i believe the God of the bible is the true God. But , if you, as strong atheist, discard any God, what is left ?

Please present a compelling scenario of a universe, that had no cause, no creator as origin, and we will have a closer look at that. 

Permalink Reply by Kim on January 6, 2012 at 12:07am

You live in that universe, regardless of whether or not you believe it so.  You seem to think that belief and nonbelief is a choice.  It's not.  Could you *choose* to, right now, stop believing in your god or start believing in another god at will?  Of course not.  Neither can anyone else here.

Okay..in the universe you believe you live in, your all-loving, all-merciful, all-powerful god allows 30,000 people to die of starvation each and every day, and thousands upon thousands of other people daily from disease.  Most of these illiterate people do not know anything about your god, and as they do not believe and have not repented of their evil ways, will burn in hell after suffering their entire life.  *That's* the perfect universe your god has made for them.

In the universe I believe we live in---reality----starvation and disease are unfortunate and ultimately preventable.  No one is at fault, but we can all try to do all we can to prevent suffering.  No invisible forces working against humanity.  No personal deities punishing people for thought-crimes.  If we succeed, WE succeeded.  If we fail, we have only ourselves to blame.

Do you realize how vast the universe is?  There are 170 septillion stars in the universe.  That's this number:

170,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Imagine how many planets that equals out to.  With the same elements as the elements on earth.  The same laws of physics and thermodynamics.  The same chemistry.  Yet we are it?  Do you realize how preposterously unlikely that is?

You believe that a god created all that just to light this toy-world of ours?  You think all of that was just for us?  That, in my opinion, is arrogance.  But, to make it worse, you claim that the same god that you feel did all that actually cares what each and every 7 billion of us think, say, and do every waking moment of every day. And what is your god of the bible's ultimate test of worthiness for each and every one of us?  Saving people's lives?  Living within our means?  Protecting the gifts he gave us?  Nooooo...all he wants is each person's acknowledgement of his divine, unseen existence before each person breathes his last breath. You believe this, and you think that *we* are irrational for not believing the same.

Are you serious?

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 6, 2012 at 4:59am

 Most of these illiterate people do not know anything about your god, and as they do not believe and have not repented of their evil ways, will burn in hell after suffering their entire life.  

Could you tell me where the bible says so ?

Imagine how many planets that equals out to. With the same elements as the elements on earth.  The same laws of physics and thermodynamics.  The same chemistry.  Yet we are it?  Do you realize how preposterously unlikely that is?

If you want to suggest there are other habitable planets out there, i must disappoint you. 

http://www.reasons.org/physics/constants-physics/exotic-life-sites-...


The data demonstrate that the probability of finding even one planet with the capacity to support life falls short of one chance in 10140 (that number is 1 followed by 140 zeros).

http://www.reasons.org/philosophyreligion/worldviews/anthropic-prin...

In the 1960s the odds that any given planet in the universe would possess the necessary conditions to support intelligent physical life were shown to be less than one in ten thousand.5 In 2001 those odds shrank to less than one in a number so large it might as well be infinity (10^173).

You believe that a god created all that just to light this toy-world of ours?  You think all of that was just for us?  That, in my opinion, is arrogance.  

http://www.firstscience.com/home/articles/big-theories/recipe-for-t...

The tremendous timespans involved in biological evolution offer a new perspective on the question 'why is our Universe so big?' The emergence of human life here on Earth has taken 4.5 billion years. Even before our Sun and its planets could form, earlier stars must have transmuted pristine hydrogen into carbon, oxygen and the other atoms of the periodic table. This has taken about ten billion years. The size of the observable Universe is, roughly, the distance travelled by light since the Big Bang, and so the present visible Universe must be around ten billion light-years across.
The galaxy pair NGC 6872 and IC 4970 indicate the vastness of the Universe. Light from the bright foreground star has taken a few centuries to reach us; the light from the galaxies has been travelling for 300 million years. The Universe must be this big - as measured by the cosmic number N - to give intelligent life time to evolve. In addition, the cosmic numbers omega and Q must have just the right values for galaxies to form at all.
This is a startling conclusion. The very hugeness of our Universe, which seems at first to signify how unimportant we are in the cosmic scheme, is actually entailed by our existence! This is not to say that there couldn't have been a smaller universe, only that we could not have existed in it. The expanse of cosmic space is not an extravagant superiority; it's a consequence of the prolonged chain of events, extending back before our Solar System formed, that preceded our arrival on the scene.
This may seem a regression to an ancient 'anthropocentric' perspective - something that was shattered by Copernicus's revelation that the Earth moves around the Sun rather than vice versa. But we shouldn't take Copernican modesty (some-times called the 'principle of mediocrity') too far. Creatures like us require special conditions to have evolved, so our perspective is bound to be in some sense atypical. The vastness of our universe shouldn't surprise us, even though we may still seek a deeper explanation for its distinctive features.

All you have shown so far, are NEGATIVE arguments. How about to show now why you believe, no creator is necessary to explain why  the universe exists ?

Permalink Reply by Kim on January 6, 2012 at 9:07am

Let's start with the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?  Answer: God.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."  [The child dies seven days later.]

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  

Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. 

New Testament:

1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 

Luke 14: 25-26

And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

(Real family man right there, your Jesus.)

1 Corinthians 14: 34-35

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 

If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

That is just a taste of your good ole bible that you think everyone should believe in.  Even if it were all true, and good thing it isn't, this god isn't worth worship. The only use I find in a bible is its literary value as ancient folklore.  Not one single moral principle I practice comes from within its pages.  Good thing too, considering the above scripture.

See?  I can quote mine too!

Also, if it were all true, don't you think it is a bit unfair to deny accountability for your own wrongdoings and allow an innocent man's blood to pay for your sins?  Even if it was remotely believable (which it's far from being), I would reject it on principle.  I would never advocate an innocent person suffering for my own transgressions.  But, that's me...maybe you can watch "The Passion of the Christ", and smile through your tears, proclaiming, "But it had to happen to save me from my sin."  I see it and think, "Why couldn't the all-powerful god just forgive sin?  Why is blood and sacrifice needed?"  It makes no sense to me, therefore I cannot believe it.

Permalink Reply by Angelo on January 6, 2012 at 11:12am

See?  I can quote mine too!

if you wish to quote mine, do it at least, being on topic. Citing bible versicles, you are not.......

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 7, 2012 at 9:08pm

Hey Angelo,

 

If you want to suggest there are other habitable planets out there, i must disappoint you.

 

You know there are no other habitable planets out there? Really?

The rest of your post appears to be related to the already disproven "fine tuning" myth. Please address that proof before continuing to post the same thing over and over.

- kk

Permalink Reply by Akshay Bist on January 6, 2012 at 12:58pm

And what about the creator of the creator? Believing in a creator leaves the door open for that. I mean what is left if you discard the creator of the creator? Think about it

Permalink Reply by Kir Komrik on January 7, 2012 at 9:04pm

Hey Angelo,

 

Just saying, isnt it ?? this thread is not about to justify , why i believe the God of the bible is the true God. But , if you, as strong atheist, discard any God, what is left ?

 

No, that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is, as I've stated, that strong atheists argue that no reasonable evidence can be provided for the existence of a "god", so it is still incumbent upon you to respond to that.

 

- kk

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