The topic came up on another post, so I thought I'd move it over here.

The topic of angelic origins or angels themselves is a very mysterious subject in the Bible. For such leading characters, it's very odd that no real close up is ever mentioned. Considering god is pretty detailed oriented when it comes to cotton blends, facial grooming and field growing, one could almost assume that certain texts have been all together removed.
Further complicating matters is the Greek word 'angelos' derived from the Hebrew translation 'mala'ak.' This is used interchangeably to describe human messengers, as is the word Host or even Heavenly Host which is also used to describe holy anointed (but very human) kings or rules supposedly picked by god's hand. That aside there are two very clear terms for angels found in the Bible, but NEVER used in any passage linked to a creation from god. These words are seraphim (singular seraph) or cherub. As you can see by the passages that accredit god with creating angels, the description of stars, constellations or a human praise of gods accomplishment can be confused, too. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that god created seraphim or cherub. In fact, there are many schools of thought that follow the idea that the 'we' in Genesis is indeed referring to the angels and god, not the holy trinity as mainstream theory implies (but doesn't prove.)
Take a look:

Nehemiah 9:6:

You alone are Yahweh. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You gave life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

(Reading this, it actually seems like it has to separate the fact that the multitudes of heaven worship him from the act of his creation. The starry host could indeed be constellations.)

Revelation 10:6

6And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

(It isn't even god proclaiming to have created angels here, it's Daniel swearing by god's name. Again, the creation of the heavens and all that is in them is easily read as the sky and stars. )

Colossians 1:16 (New International Version)

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
(Again, still not god claiming this, and again it seems more like a general, sweeping statement. Why isn't there ever a specific naming of something as important as angels?)

Ephesians 3:9-10 (New International Version)

9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. (One more time, it seems a little flimsy to say that with all the translation, all the editing, all the lost books, angels must have been created by god just because he created 'everything.')


Now.. why go about arguing the details of fairy tales? Eh.. mostly because I'm pretty fascinated angels and demonology...but also because it's one more piece of the puzzle that unravels the supposed divinity of Christ and the self claimed monotheistic nature of Abrahamic religions.

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Ah.. such enlightenment found by a boy and his goat! (Seriously, weren't the DSSs found when a kid was looking for his goat, came upon a cave and threw in a few rocks to make sure it was safe before going inside? The sound of the clay pots shattering is what lead to the discovery?)

It's sort of funny that the Bible readily admits that god failed to kill all the inhabitants of the earth. Nephilim existed in the time before the flood and in the time after.

Yet another addition to the 'what were they thinking?!' chronicles.

Where do you way in, Doone? Angels created by god or not?
The character of God may not have been claiming he created everything, but with verses like 2 Timothy 3:16-"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness blah blah blah" doesn't that show that God would have made sure everything in the Bible, including claims about him, were accurate, including the claim he made everything?

Psalms 148:1-5

1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

It could just mean the last thing mentioned, the heavens and waters, or it could mean all the things listed. The fact there are so many religions because of these kind of disagreements is no surprise at all.
I think the nephilim and their fathers exist outside or in equal to god, simply for the fact that the Bible rather subtly but repeatedly states time and time again that god couldn't control them. Nephilim are born against the will of god. They survive the flood (somehow!) despite the will of god. I'd say Doone probably has it right. They are the last scraps of proof that the big three weren't so monotheistic after all. I've noticed the subjects of greatest dispute (and the subsequent branching of religions) are usually items of great contention but very little writings. It seems to desperately point that large pieces were edited out of the final cut for one reason or another. I can't go so far as to say why, since I haven't read these missing links..but my guess would be that while the god character was developing from early godhood (so more like the Greek-Roman gods that were easily tricked by humans, prone to petty emotions and mistakes) to the later revamped, omnipotence..all indications of him being equal or lesser to another entity were quietly erased. Same with the divinity of Jesus and such.
It would be interesting to trace the evolution of religion..
That would be interesting. And it makes me wonder... are there religions based on those lost books like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the more recently uncovered gospels of Judas, and other books not included by mainstream Christians and Jews?

Supposedly the Catholic bible includes 14 extra books which the protestants decided to dump about 100 years ago. I'd say it's about time to take another look and dump some more of it.
Nah. I think they should be left with the millstones of the sillier books of the Bible. More people can see how stupid it is then. It can't help them having the god of the OT hanging around, as much as they'd like to move on to the NT only.
Exactly...though we have to keep in mind that before the Protestant, there were other texts edited by the Catholic church, too.
Anything that didn't point towards Jesus being divine (thus his entire LIFE from childhood to adulthood) plus various texts that had rules or laws that didn't mesh with what was currently popular (thus the spring of theories on woman's rights, ecology, ect..) Hasn't the Book of Timothy or Thomas (I always get those two confused, and too tired to look it up) been 'in translation' by the Catholic church for the last thousand years or so, and never released to the public?

Not saying that there is anything shocking being hid.. just little bits chipped away or added with each denomination until two thousand years later, it's totally different.

Demons, Angels and Nephilim, the Ark of the Covenant... the mysteries of the Bible probably didn't start off as mysteries at all.
"I think they should be left with the millstones of the sillier books of the Bible."

can't argue with that point.
it's said the bible is the best tool for creating new atheists.
Look a little deeper. Sumerian. Might help.

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