My Atheist Friends, Help Me Understand
I read posts here that call different things, "harmful to humanity." Others call something, "good" or "bad" or "evil."
A very simple question, who gets to decide the definition of "harmful to humanity" and what is there critieria? The same for "good," "bad," and "evil?" These are not material terms. If everything is material isn't there just "is" and not these moral declarations if one is being thoroughly atheist?
Help me understand your position so I am fair and honest about the views. Thanks.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on -
Btw, I like your icon/avatar.
:)
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Permalink Reply by onecae on -
Thank you, however your icon scares me just a little. Since seeing your map, I feel a lot better about knowing where I am - no vanity or pride, just the simple truth is often all one needs. It's too bad the truth has only been so recently available.
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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on
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MErcury Surface, Space Environment, GEochemistry, and Ranging
(And note another pic there: Mickey Mouse spotted on Mercury.)
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Permalink Reply by onecae on
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I admit I was speaking with irony and sarcasm, two of my cousins that I often try to avoid.
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Permalink Reply by Stutz on -
I'll answer a question with a question (credit goes to Sam Harris):
Who gets to decide the definition of "healthy"? What is the criteria? How can we decide if a person is healthy, or if a given practice is healthy for us? Is there an "ultimate health standard", such as some perfectly healthy being, against which we judge our own health, and without which it would be impossible to call anything "healthy" or "sick" because it would just lead us down a path of "health relativism"?
Morality is no different than health. "Good" and "bad" might not be material terms, but they are adjectives that describe material things, just like "healthy" or "green" or "stupid". Such descriptions are not really "relative" because they are always judged against the weight of what everyone else thinks: our friends, our society/culture, human history, science, etc. None of this requires the existence of a divine being in order to function. It's just common sense.
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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on
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Excellent.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on -
What are the criteria? What is the criterion?
Re "Good" and "bad" might not be material terms, but they are adjectives that describe material things, ....
Those two adjectives and "stupid" describe humans' responses to (or views of) material things. Adjectives such as "helpful" or "harmful" describe material things or their effects.
I agree with your morality and health analogy and your "None of this requires...."
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Permalink Reply by Unseen on -
@archaeopteryx
RE: "If you became conscious of an intent to mow the lawn, that intent was actually formed in your brain in the preconscious mind a few seconds before that intention entered your mind."
Even considering it's source, I can't fault that reasoning, but what has that to do with free will? I can't accept - assuming that's what you're saying - that I'm instinctively hardwired to decide to mow the lawn, because in actuality, I'm instinctively hardwired to park my butt in front of the bigscreen with a bag of chips and a cold Bud and rent a sheep to take care of
If only I were saying that you are hard-wired to decide to mow the lawn or eat chips while watching TV, etc., I'm not. There are no specific "hard wires" anywhere in your mind or brain, but it does conform to physical laws governing all of its processes.
Let me turn it around: how can you imagine you escape all those processes without positing a very dubious spirit world where souls exist which actually control the actions of the body instead of a brain?
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Permalink Reply by John Major on -
Unseen. Are you saying that the determination to mow the lawn is formed in the preconscious, perhaps microseconds before we are consciously aware. Then, when we are aware, we can chose to mow the lawn or do something else? If so, it still sounds like free will to me. Does determinism allow for the preconscious development of two actions, mutually exclusive - mowing the lawn and watching Tv?
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Permalink Reply by Unseen on
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The science indicates a couple or a few seconds before we act, the action and the conscious awareness of it are set into motion, the awareness coming after the action is set. So, no, it would seem that whatever you do, the alternatives were sorted out preconsciously. I don't see where any meaningful sense of free will can fit in there.
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on -
Well of COURSE we're subject to the same effects of quantum mechanics as the rest of the universe, but since much of quantum mechanics involves uncertainty (see Heisenberg - "Traffic cop to Heisenberg: 'Do you have any idea how fast you were going?' Heisenberg: 'No, but I know where I am --'" pa-dum-pump!), how can we ever be certain which of our behaviors are due to those, and which are not?
Scientific revision of the "Flip Wilson" defense: quantum fluctuations made me do it.
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