Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on April 16, 2012 at 12:21pm

"Your right to swing your fist, stops just short of my nose." - metaphorically at least, that concept, necessary for the survival of our species, was probably the first precept on the road to establishing a moral code for Humans, living together in a mutually beneficial society (which could include any gathering of two or more members). The Human moral code was built, brick by brick, over eons, based on what worked, and what didn't.

Had the Bible been written as a "Self-Help" Book, and all mention of magical, invisible entities omitted, like most Human endeavors, it would have contained some beneficial information, and some, not so much, but the introduction of fear into the formula, fear of what would happen if these precepts were not followed, while at first proved very effective among an ignorant population, ultimately provided the grounds for its own downfall as we Humans became more knowledgeable about the world around us and the way it worked.

Newton, for example, considered by most to have been the Grandfather of astrophysics, and who turned the world around from the Aristotelian thinking that had prevailed for two millennia, was in fact, devoutly religious, and used his discoveries in physics, his principles of gravity and laws of motion, in an effort to prove that a god created and continued to provide maintenance for the Universe. For example, he realized that the orbits of the planets were irregular, and with time, would collide or their orbits decay, and he believed that god sent comets, with their slight gravitational tugs, to pull errant planets back into their proper orbits.

Ironically, Kant, LaGrange and Laplace, not having the myopic religious focus of Newton, were able to use Newton's own calculations to demonstrate that the Universe was in fact, quite self-sustaining, and in no need of a Magic Maintenance Man.

Knowledge, then, has become the torch that illuminates the Human mind and drives back the shadows where Magic Boogy-Men lurk - the moral judgments we make - right, wrong, good, bad, are entirely subjective, but based on a variety of factors, among those, past experience of what works, what doesn't, and what society will allow us to do without stopping us.

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
www.in-His-own-image.com

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Permalink Reply by Karen Lollis on May 19, 2012 at 6:30pm

Well said.

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Permalink Reply by Rocky Oliver (LotusGeek) on April 16, 2012 at 1:09pm

** As is my custom, I am replying before reading the replies, so my response is not influenced by others.

You are right, in the abstract - everything is relative.

BUT, there are social norms that define the basics of what is "good" and what is "bad". And the things and acts that fall under the "good" or "bad" label change over time as well. Slavery was good, now bad. Smoking - was good, now bad. Using racial epithets - used to be generally good and acceptable, now patently bad.

There are even differences in this between societies today. There are Middle-Eastern countries where stoning an adulterer, or even a woman who is raped, is considered a morally "good" thing. Here it is morally, ethically, and legally abhorrent.

You get the idea.

So, I think you have to rely on your own moral compass to define what is good, bad, evil, etc. to you. Feel free to share those with others here. However, you may get some who disagree with you; you may get others who will ask you to define and expand upon what makes something "good" or "bad" in your eyes.

Discussion and civil discourse is a "good" thing. It helps us all understand each other just a little bit better, every time (ok, most of the time ;) ).

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Permalink Reply by Atheist Exile on April 16, 2012 at 1:50pm

I just posted an entry to my blog that deals with my ideas on what makes revealed religions "bad". The root reason, I believe, is a false moral system that leads to and reinforces fundamentalism and can even promote a persecution complex. Rather than me re-explaining it, please have a look at it here.

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Permalink Reply by Wretched Saint on April 16, 2012 at 2:15pm

Thank you for your gracious replies. I am gathering the most here would view morality as defined by majority consensus with some saying it is hardwired into us. True? But what if two major consensus groups come into conflict with one another, one calling something "good" the other deems "evil" and vice versa?

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Permalink Reply by Tobie Barb on April 16, 2012 at 2:29pm

As I said earlier any global view of morality must be argued incolving scientific evidence as far as possible if two major points of view occur I suspect that this would be because they fundamentally disagree on the nature of morality and therefore would have to make concessions as we all do to live together. For the sake of understanding I propose you imagine sections of any holy book and how people claim that they must be read metaphorically what they are in fact doing here is looking at the proposal logically and deciding how to interpret it within their own lives. We must do the same when this occurs.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on April 16, 2012 at 2:32pm

Then you have religious wars, lol.

Actually, the best example of that might be slavery/abolition in the U.S.  I believe that everyone could see the 'evils' of slavery, but a lot of slave owners couldn't bring themselves to accept that evil because of the dependency of their wealth upon slavery.  The pro-slavery arguments mostly revolved around state rights/autonomy because there really weren't many other options for defending the practice - outside of biblical endoresment of slavery.

In most secular instances, however, reasonable compromises can be met.  Where many Atheists detest religious morality is that there is no reasonable justification for it - just particular interpretations of particular scriptures by people who claim to be an authority on what some unproven figure 'wants' or 'prohibits'.

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Permalink Reply by Mabel on April 16, 2012 at 3:24pm

But what if two major consensus groups come into conflict with one another, one calling something "good" the other deems "evil" and vice versa?

@ Wretched Saint - You will find them on on-line forums presenting their cases and each accusing the other of using biased information.

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on April 16, 2012 at 3:43pm

Wretched - (though I suspect that you are neither wretched, nor a saint) - this happens all of the time in war. Soldiers are consistently indoctrinated to believe that the "enemy" is evil, and even less than human, hence the terms Americans have coined, such as "Nips" for Niponese, "Japs" for Japanese, "Gooks," "Krauts," and more recently, "Towel-heads."

A soldier who views his antagonist as human, finds it more difficult to take his life.

"History," it is said, "is written by the victor." In some cases, so is morality.

The old testament is full of instances in which the Israelites conquered other peoples, slaughtering hundreds, if not thousands, yet they believed their god gave them permission to do so, and in some cases, actually ordered it. When one crazy old man claimed his god gave him a vast territory, and thousands of his descendants believed it and used it to justify usurping the land from all those who had made it their homes for countless generations, I can see little in that that is moral. Yet if one believes in the omnipotence of "El Shaddai," as he introduced himself to Abraham, or "Yahweh," as he introduced himself to Moses (and I maintain they are not one and the same), and if one believes the words of the Bible, that this god sanctioned the invasions and genocide, then that same one must believe that it was the "moral" thing to do, though my own moral compass, unaffected by scripture, determines that it was not.

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
www.in-His-own-image.com

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Permalink Reply by Atheist Exile on April 16, 2012 at 4:55pm

What else can one do but to remain as objective as possible? Thinking through every little consideration of a moral conflict is probably not what most people would do. They would more likely defend their way of life. Secularism versus Christianity or Islam. India versus Pakistan. Israel versus Iran . . . personal morality is often usurped by larger concerns.

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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on April 16, 2012 at 5:21pm

RE: "personal morality is often usurped by larger concerns."

Interestingly Exile - and I'm not disagreeing with you at all - that could almost qualify as a discussion topic in and of itself. When does personal morality give way to larger, societal concerns?

Japan attacked us, but Viet Nam did not. The war in Viet Nam saw far more young (then) people following their own personal morality, in protesting the war and in actually leaving the country, giving up their US citizenship and risking prison in order not to participate in a war that violated that morality. Yet in WW II, few, if any disputed that the US was "right" in going to war against Japan, because our "tribe" was in effect threatened by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

When, exactly does national or societal morality trump personal morality? I don't expect you to have the answer to that, but it's worth kicking around.

Til now, it's not really something to which I've given a great deal of thought, but it's certainly something to consider.

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
www.in-His-own-image.com

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Permalink Reply by Tobie Barb on April 16, 2012 at 5:43pm

I generally dissaprove of most recent 20th century american military activity though to my own admission some of it was neccesary, however I must say though the general public was not aware of it the crimes of Japan during the second world war are much forgotten and more than warranted the attack in their own right separate to those of their allies in Europe. The rape and genocide agaisnt te chinese makes them just as guilty of the atrocities of WWII. In my own view of things there should be no situation where pure patriotism should ever trump morality though this is not to say that a situation when a nation should interfere in another countries domestic affairs.

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