Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Becca on September 30, 2010 at 12:11am

When I hear the word indoctrination I think of a purposefully designed plan to get your children to think exactly how you think and actively keeping them away from and demonizing that which does not agree with your beliefs. I think of denying your children medical care and forcing them into rituals they don't really want to be a part of and so on. Indoctrination is a very gloom and doom word and does imply psychological abuse.

I don't think all that many kids are being indoctrinated. Mose Christians out there take their kids to church on Christmas and Easter and tell them when they die they are going to heaven and that there is some nice god man in the sky watching over them... as far as Christians go we need more of this sort. The children of this sort of Christian parent (the majority) aren't being indoctrinated, they are just unfortunately being misinformed by parents who themselves are misinformed. No psychological abuse going on here.

The best any of us can do...
- Report any and all suspected child abuse (mental, physical, emotional) that you witness to Child Protective Services or alternatively call 911 if the child is in danger. The more reports made about a child the more likely CPS is going to at least look into the situation.
- Educate our own children to be critical independent thinkers.
- Encourage and support science education from a young age.
- Allow the children you are around (yours and others) to express their own views freely and don't judge them for it but do challenge them in a way that gets them to think about their views.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Long on September 30, 2010 at 1:12pm

I like you addage that these more moderate Christians are less harmful
Regardin their hildrens development. But I still see a fallacy: you are saying
It is ok to set up a realm of fantasy for a child to rely on their entire life
And teach them it's all fun and games until they ever dare question those 
Claims? How could that not be harmful or damaging for a child adult some
Day later. That's what i mean: is it ok to sit back and watch credulous 
Minds brainwashed into mythological fantasy as reality? Santa doesn't count
Because we expose that as pretend later.

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Permalink Reply by Becca on October 1, 2010 at 10:44am

you are saying It is ok to set up a realm of fantasy for a child to rely on their entire life
And teach them it's all fun and games until they ever dare question those
Claims?

I'm not saying it's ok I'm saying it's not indoctrination or child abuse. And I do think that not allowing your child to question the parent's belief is indoctrination which I implied when I said: "indoctrination is a purposefully designed plan to get your children to think exactly how you think and actively keeping them away from and demonizing that which does not agree with your beliefs."

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on October 2, 2010 at 1:53am

Indoctrination and teaching are processes. You can indoctrinate someone with a concept that happens to be true. You can teach a person a concept that is false. It's a matter of approach rather than the veracity of the material.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on October 2, 2010 at 9:01am

I concur with Kris.

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Permalink Reply by Jon Heim on September 30, 2010 at 12:25am

I don't want my kids to think the way I think. I want them to think the way THEY think. they are real people, not clones for us to live vicariously.

I think the real problem is that parents want their kids to be just like them, to achieve where they couldn't and to believe what they always wanted the rest of the world to beleive. Also, to not be unruly. I wonder..if the bible didn't tell us to honor our mothers and fathers, would we have more personality? hm...

I think that a parents job is to give children the necessary means to grow up on their own, not mold them in their image. I think that a parents job is to teach kids about everything, not just something in a narrow point of view.
doing otherwise is just making them vulnerable in real life situations.

It doesn't mater to me what belief my children have in the future, what matters to me is that they have the right to do so, and to choose freely.

and don't even get me started on parents who disown their homosexual children...

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on September 30, 2010 at 7:57am

Jon, don't you think that kids will look to their parents for guidance on how to think and act in the world? It seems to me to be an abdication of responsibility to let the flounder about on their own for fear we will influence them in some negative way. We can;t obey the Prime Directive with respect to our children.

But I agree with some degree of your sentiment. Put simply, I don't what to teach my kids what to think. I want to teach them how to think.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Long on September 30, 2010 at 1:07pm

Love it! I strive daily t tech them how to think and not what to think.
My point in this line of questioning is how far is ok to sit and watch 
Other humans purposefully brainwash children into fantasy that is 
Never discredited and furthermore taboo to ever question? 
As thinking (far from perfect) critical humans are we allowing childrens
Rights to be stepped on too much? I realize the idea is radical but just
A consideration. Is there anything more potent or directed at childrens rights
We should tactfully confront religious parents with? Any religion? 

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on September 30, 2010 at 1:40pm

That is a double edged sword. Interfering with the rights of the parents warrants more than the perception of harm by a minority group. This is very arguably true from my personal opinion, but it is a practical fact regardless of my opinion.

I think the harm must be direct and/or immediate to justify usurping the rights of parents. Education and teaching critical thinking skills is the only way I can think to combat religion in general.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on September 30, 2010 at 8:02am

My firstborn is still too young for adults to plant silly notions in her head. But, whether one thinks introducing notions of God is abusive or not, I do think that most children are too young for these ideas for many initial years that most parents and churches start indoctrinating them. I know it caused me a lot of confusion and grief dealing with these fantastical ideas that made no sense.

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on September 30, 2010 at 3:35pm

So I see making kids eat all of the food on their plate when the parent chose the amount, as setting them up for failure. Giving them treats when they feel bad, in order to make them feel better, or getting treats as a method of making them happy sets them up for eating disorders as their emotions get ran by their food intake. Arguably it's abuse and will lead to an early death.

Others think that eating meat is murder and teaching your kids to eat meat it teaching them to murder.

I would gladly send my kids (non-existent) out to ride a bike without knee pads, elbow pads, or a helmet and hold the thought that scraping your knee teaches you that things can hurt, so don't do some things. Many parents would suggest that's that's irresponsible and child-endangerment.

Clearly, someone is going to want to push up a soap box on why I'm wrong about whatever point made here. But I'm illustrating that we shouldn't get to decide what is right for another household based on an ability to argue that it's harmful. Does religion cause positive harm. No. Can religion cause harm? Yes. So can drinking in the household with kids. Outlaw it? No table saws because they might lose a finger? Where would it end?

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on September 30, 2010 at 4:34pm

Where would it end?

Suspended animation, maybe?

I've been thinking more and more on how we are such a pain averse culture, but really, the things that fuck us up are also things that define who we become. Some of my better qualities are the product of some of my worst experiences. It's just a product of living that we have to put up with at least a bit of abuse.

It is possible that Christianity inherently requires a certain amount of indoctrination; however, in practice, we are all exposed to a certain amount of indoctrination throughout our lives. The question is, how much can we safely consume without toxic effects? I don't think your average church-goer or 'believer' is crossing that threshold, at least not where I'm from.

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