Morality of God: Arguing This With a Fundie on Facebook
This particular fundamentalist is a friend of mine... although the friendship has become strained since he discovered my atheism. He often posts things on my facebook wall and in my inbox to either "help me find Christ" or to "assure me not to worry because I'm just a lost sheep." Make no mistake... he and I were once best friends... and I still care a lot about him... and worry about the fact that he is so thoroughly brainwashed.
Anyhow... yesterday... I posted this video on my wall...
And so... I ended up getting in an unexpected heated debate with him... here's the transcript.. .with names removed of coure:
21 hours ago
Me:
Also... people have the wrong idea about the story of the exodus...
It becomes clear that God WANTED to torture the Egyptians because he repeatedly forces Pharoah to change his mind so that he doesn't let the Israelites go. WHY WOULD HE DO T...HAT?! WHAT IS MORAL IN THAT?! WHY WOULD A GOOD GOD TORTURE PEOPLE FOR NO REASON??!
It becomes clear that God WANTED to torture the Egyptians because he repeatedly forces Pharoah to change his mind so that he doesn't let the Israelites go. WHY WOULD HE DO T...HAT?! WHAT IS MORAL IN THAT?! WHY WOULD A GOOD GOD TORTURE PEOPLE FOR NO REASON??!
21 hours ago ·
Him:
He does NOT hate women and he does NOT assign hell to people on purpose. They are not innocent, they have blatantly rejected God and repeatedly spat in His face.
He gives us the decision to serve Him or not. He didn't want to have to force ...Pharaoh's hand like that but had to because the Israelites were His people and if they died under bondage, which was already hurting the Israelites then Jesus never would have been born to be able to save us from the bondage of sin. He gave Pharaoh a choice, let my people go or face the consequences. He never forced him, but had to get his attention which unfortunately resulted in the last plague. God sent His son to be the savior of the World so that He could save Anyone and Everyone that came to Him. He wouldn't just MAKE people good because then what would that prove? That would just mean that we are robots to Him instead of giving us a choice. He would've spared Pharaoh and his son and millions of people had he not hardened his heart and turned from their wicked ways, BY THEMSELVES.
With the killing off the entire nation of Jericho he was purging the land of sin because other than Rahab and her family, they believed and were spared, no one else in the city believed. They were given 40 YEARS! To see God's work and chose not to repent.
We see a later result of corruption when King Saul did not kill off all the Midianites and spared the King and the livestock. That nation ended up reproducing and it ended up that they became huge enemies of the nation once more. So not only they had the Philistines, Saul was killed by the Midianite king's next son because of Saul's disobedience.
Have you even looked into WHY God gives these commandments [skycomet]?
He gives us the decision to serve Him or not. He didn't want to have to force ...Pharaoh's hand like that but had to because the Israelites were His people and if they died under bondage, which was already hurting the Israelites then Jesus never would have been born to be able to save us from the bondage of sin. He gave Pharaoh a choice, let my people go or face the consequences. He never forced him, but had to get his attention which unfortunately resulted in the last plague. God sent His son to be the savior of the World so that He could save Anyone and Everyone that came to Him. He wouldn't just MAKE people good because then what would that prove? That would just mean that we are robots to Him instead of giving us a choice. He would've spared Pharaoh and his son and millions of people had he not hardened his heart and turned from their wicked ways, BY THEMSELVES.
With the killing off the entire nation of Jericho he was purging the land of sin because other than Rahab and her family, they believed and were spared, no one else in the city believed. They were given 40 YEARS! To see God's work and chose not to repent.
We see a later result of corruption when King Saul did not kill off all the Midianites and spared the King and the livestock. That nation ended up reproducing and it ended up that they became huge enemies of the nation once more. So not only they had the Philistines, Saul was killed by the Midianite king's next son because of Saul's disobedience.
Have you even looked into WHY God gives these commandments [skycomet]?
20 hours ago ·
Me:
Yahweh has showed only instances of violence that would be considered evil if done by a human hand... why should he be given an exception to murder because he's a god? Granted... I think the idea of a god is ridiculous... but regardless... ...the god of the old testament could easily be compared to Ghengis Khan. Disbelief in God is not a sin worthy of death. To kill someone just because they don't understand you is an attrocity that escapes words.
If we are God's children... think of it this way... should you beat your child with a baseball bat because they don't understand what you told them to do? Should you kill them because they get lost in a mall and can't find you? Why would we accept this behavior from the greatest being in the universe and not accept it among humans?
What you are doing is defending the father that breaks his child's arm when they don't wash the dishes correctly.
If we are God's children... think of it this way... should you beat your child with a baseball bat because they don't understand what you told them to do? Should you kill them because they get lost in a mall and can't find you? Why would we accept this behavior from the greatest being in the universe and not accept it among humans?
What you are doing is defending the father that breaks his child's arm when they don't wash the dishes correctly.
24 minutes ago ·
Tags: argument, debate, discussion, facebook, friend, fundamentalist, fundies, god, morality, of
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt Coulthurst on -
Let me get this straight - he is saying that God needed to punish the Egyptians so that the Pharoah would free the Israelites from bondage so that Jesus could be born so that we could be saved from a sin that He allowed in the first place??
Mind boggling rationalisation there.
And He destroyed Jericho because they did not believe in Him? I would have waited until they all died and went to Hell. Then he could say, "I bet you feel like a right bunch of charlies now!"
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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on -
He also seemed to fail to understand that 1. If God is omnipotent... he doesn't HAVE to do anything. He didn't want to have to force ...Pharaoh's hand like that but had to because the Israelites were His people and if they died under bondage, which was already hurting the Israelites then Jesus never would have been born to be able to save us from the bondage of sin. He gave Pharaoh a choice, let my people go or face the consequences.
He also seems to have misinterpretted [badly] a crucial part of that piece of scripture...
Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go
I did not lie when I said that God chose to make it so that Pharaoh would refuse to let them go. .... contrary to what the fundie said... pharaoh DID NOT have a choice.
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on -
A common tactic for believers of any ideology when facing valid refutation is to assume that the idealogical opponent just doesn't understand. If only they would read that chapter again and again, eventually they would come to the same conclusions!
It is a wasted effort in many cases, but maybe you'll make a dent in the armor. Even my friend recently explained away all these atrocities by claiming that God was doing us a favor.
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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on
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I hope I am able to get through his indoctrination strait jacket cocoon. IDK... we'll see. It would be so sad if he goes through his life without a second thought on his fundamentalism. Every once in a while I try to slip doubt in his mind by bringing up the one thing that may work against a biblical literalist... cause cognitive dissonance by bringing up Bible verses that are appalling or contradictory and acting as if they affect me a lot. [I am appalled by much of the attrocities in the Bible but I overplay how much I care about it to get his attention to the verse]. No visible chips in the cocoon yet. ;_;
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Permalink Reply by Tommy R. on -
Tell him to stop or de- friend him. I'd have no time for this nonsense.
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Permalink Reply by Garrison on -
When someone is that far on the other side of where you are as it concerns religion, it may well be time to reconsider the friendship. Someone saying, "Have a blessed day," as you exit the shop is one thing - that is just a religious person trying to be friendly. "God is great and needs no explanation and you'll burn in hell if you don't believe," and that such nonsense is quite another thing. Only you can decide how much bullshit you're willing to put up with from a friend.
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If that's so... are you SURE you want to worship a God like THIS?!
Secondly... I notice things better now... because I approach the book with the default idea of "I will assume nothing about God."
I CAN'T believe in God [Fundie] ... If I believed in a God that hates women, likes blood and death, assigns a punishment to innocent people that even SERIAL KILLERS DON'T DESERVE - i.e. Hell... I can't believe in that God... because I WOULD HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD TO BE EVIL!