Medjugorje
Even my Mom's parents (who are Catholic), have their own tales to tell. The most recent one comes from my mom's Dad (a Deacon), who says that one time when they visited Medjugorje, they brought a handful of black rosaries with them (it was a small shipment they had gotten to give away at a mass, but they had left a few back where they live in Connecticut). While in Medjugorje, at one mass, in both of their hands, the rosaries changed from black to gold (they were holding the rosaries; they saw it... according to my grandfather).
I saw one of these rosaries, compared with one they didn't take. They were identical, except the one that had gone to Medjugorje was gold (although I don't know if it was real gold or just gold coloring... I never thought to ask if they got the rosaries tested for such).
My grandparents see no possible explanation other then supernatural. I'm quite aware of the complications of such a conclusion, but, then again, I can think of no other explanation either, and I can rule out dishonesty immediately because I know my grandparents and it is dishonesty they hate more then anything else.
Medjugorje.org
That site is a good site to see what's going on there.
So what is going on there? What is it with Medjugorje that makes believers love this place?
It's odd, too, because whenever I talk to an atheist who's been there, they say "nothing happened. I experienced no miracles, nothing. It's all bunk." Compare that with a believer, who tells stories about miracles and experiences the minute they first enter the place!
For me, it's a strange thing, and it's the one thing that has always puzzled me. I don't believe in a Supernatural, an Afterlife, etc, obviously. But without such an explanation at hand, I'm at a loss when it comes to explaining Medjugorje, even to myself. It can't be supernatural, but what else could it be?
Tags: God, Medjugorje, Miracles, Supernatural
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on -
People who really want something to happen will tend to be more apt to delude themselves.
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Permalink Reply by luvtheheaven on -
I've never heard of Medjugorje until you posted this but are you sure that there is no chance it's a case of a situation similar to the one in the famous Hans Christian Andersen story "The Emperor's New Clothes"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes I read a "penguin emperor" version when I was a kid lol http://www.amazon.com/Emperor-Penguins-Clothes-Picture-Puffins/dp/0... but it's the same idea...
(and well apparently according to that wikipedia article, ""The Emperor’s New Clothes" is loosely based on a story from Libro de Patronio (or Conda Lucanor, 1328–35), a medieval Spanish collection of fifty-one cautionary tales with Arab and Jewish sources by Infante don Juan Manuel (1282–c.1349). Andersen did not know the Spanish original but read the tale in a German translation titled "So ist der Lauf der Welt". The main plot was derived from this version of the original with Andersen giving his tale a universality by setting it in no particular time or place and targeting snobbery.
In the source tale, a king is hoodwinked by weavers who claim to make a suit of clothes invisible to any man not the son of his presumed father. Andersen avoided anything risqué in his work and altered the source tale to direct the focus on courtly pride and intellectual vanity rather than adulterous paternity.")
Because the people who spend their whole lives claiming to be believers/being believers are afraid to say nothing happened because only non-believers experience nothing, might pretend something happen, especially if they truly believe it's happening to everyone else around them but just not them. Like if you KNOW your grandfather never lies, and you hear him marveling at the wonders and saying miracles are happening right now, and you're in Medjugorje with him at the time, then you'd be more apt to claim you too are seeing miracles when really you aren't, and then when more and more people do this and there's the peer pressure of like 50 people around you all apparently experiencing a miracle, you're afraid to say that you're not experiencing it too, for fear that you're really the only one not worthy of a miracle by God and you don't want to admit that or something. Or the thing Reggie said works too. I mean if you're REALLY expecting something to happen then you might just trick yourself into thinking it did and not even realize it didn't, it was just your mind and desires and all playing tricks on you. Also the more you claim that something that didn't happen happened, the more likely you are to begin convincing yourself that it really did happen, and you'll get confused between what was actually the truth. That's my theory anyway.
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Permalink Reply by Nathan Hevenstone on -
Reggie and luvtheheaven, thank you for your replies.
It is interesting to me, and luvtheheaven, you have a good point about peer pressure.
I wonder... are scientists studying Medjugorje? Are they even allowed?
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_sightings
An interesting thing pointed out by skeptics is that with the proliferation of cameras, unexplained phenomena in the skies has decreased (cause video can be analyzed and explained). Analysis by impartial viewers does quite a number on a story.
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Permalink Reply by Jānis Ķimsis on -
I doubt there are any theists making claims of miracles today that believe in them so much that they think they would pass scientific examination. There would probably be an outcry about it being blasphemous or some nonsense.
Recently there were claims of an impression of Mary on a church's window from where I live. You can bet your ass no selfrespecting clergyman is going to let a scientist get close to a miracle. And of course, they didn't.
One can argue that the faithful should be the first to demand a scientific examination of any miracle claims so they would not be misled. But then again, that would require them to care more about the truth then faith.
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Permalink Reply by Nathan Hevenstone on
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I was hoping to spawn a little discussion about my grandparents' rosaries. Like I said, I do not accept the supernatural explanation, but I also find myself woefully agnostic on how it happened, and that actually bothers me a bit.
Reggie, I had never heard that about cameras and the miracles, although it does make sense. However, I can just hear someone of faith saying "well, it's not meant to be viewed by the masses. They're missing the point. It's for the faithful who come to Medjugorje!" *shakes head*
And Jānis, that is, of course, true. 's what sucks most about miraculous claims. People of faith can't really believe in them, otherwise they'd let science all over them. But people of faith know that if science starting investigating the claims, the claims would prove to be bunk.
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Permalink Reply by elaine kilshaw on -
Delusion is a funny thing. Prove it to me without any reasonable doubt, just show me. I can say i can definiely fly at night as I develop wings but I think they would need proof and not just take my word for it.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew J Holly on -
To be clear, there is plenty of scientific research done on the medjugorje occurrences. Actually, the Catholic Church is quite rigorous about such things -- take a look, for example, at the scientific evidence the church has gathered regarding Lourdes, for example. Of course, I'm certain that you will not accept that evidence -- this is, after all, an atheist web site -- but do not make the mistake of suggesting that the faithful avoid science. Quite the contrary, the Catholic Church (at least) can be attacked for much, but not for concealing its miraculous events from science.
I mean this sincerely, and do not wish to criticize (although it will probably be interpreted as such). It is telling that so many comments below assumed that "believers would not allow science to get near a miracle" when in fact the opposite is true. Again, you may have alternative explanations, but no one can seriously argue that the Catholic Church avoids scientific inquiry. The fact that so many did tells me that they did not have the slightest clue regarding what they were commenting about. And this on a web site purportedly devoted to reason, evidence, skeptical inquiry....
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