I'm getting tired of having to spoonfeed this to some of you people individually. As it turns out though, thankfully, I can edit the OP so at least read this. I am not arguing against love, relationships or commitment, or anything the like. Quite the opposite, I'm saying they're good enough on their own without the need for the legal paperwork, money-waste and label of marriage. I welcome any opinion whether I like it or not, but not when you're missing all of the actual points like a little boy splashing the rim and substitute your own. No one's forcing you to read the whole thread, but at least read the damn OP of the thread next time or don't bother. It's getting frustrating having to read through your condescending tones just to find out you just didn't pay attention.
Hey. I'm not sure if I made a thread before but I'd like to put some of my thoughts on marriage here and see what all of you guys think. I see many of you as much smarter than me, and I think I can learn some. This got a little long, and I don't know if I should post it as a blog instead, but since my objective is to get some sort of exchange/discussion going a thread is more fitting. This is my opinion only. I'm not going to talk about gay-marriage or things like that, we all already know enough about that. I want to talk about marriage itself.
My stance on marriage is not that everybody should be allowed to have one, including gays. My stance is that nobody should get married, including straight people. And I'm often confused as to why atheists, secular intelligent people, would want to engage in this antiquated, forcefully contrived and often religious social construct.
I've said this in one form or another before. People like to think about marriage as this magical bond between two people in love, but for the bigger part of its history marriage wasn't about love at all. We know that in the past ages marriage was only used as a form of sales-contract, a political relationship building tool between two parties, and a way for the rulers to keep tabs on their subjects, while making sure they don't run amok fucking and raping each other aimlessly. It was an easy social structure to introduce into a primitive society that would otherwise kill each other over women to rape (which they did, and still do regardless). As a religious construct, it has been solely used for the above mentioned purposes, plus turn women into property. We need only look at some religious men and their harem of wives, to see that in that marriage women have become nothing more than a commodity. In marriage, even today, women are often nothing more than merchandise. Why do you think religious men always emphasize the importance of staying pure and staying away from sex until marriage? Because some men have very small penises. And some men with small penises are willing to pay high prices for a certain commodity: virginity. They want sex with virgins, because the small-dicked man knows the virgin doesn't know any better, so he has a confidence boost. Same reason they marry old geezers to little children, under the ruse of "our prophet did it." It's all about keeping the business running. Tell girls not to fuck. Slut-shame them should they dare to have sex outside of marriage. Call them whores, sluts, whatever. Put peer-pressure on them. Because if they do, the market will run dry.
There are a some popular arguments for/about marriage that I'd like to take on.
- It's a public declaration of loyalty. / It shows commitment.
This is a common error. Marriage doesn't make someone any more loyal then s/he would've been anyway, and if it does it's either because of peer-pressure (look up countries with the lowest divorce rates) or simple disingenuity. If you are in a relationship (which is not open), then you should be able to stay loyal and make it clear you're committed all by yourself, without a ring on your finger to vouch for you. Saying marriage ads to the commitment and shows loyalty is really no different than, for example, saying the bible gives us strength and hope. We should be able to have those things by ourselves, and those who cling to it show only a lack of those traits in themselves; just as someone who can not be as loyal without marriage shows a lack of confidence in their loyalty to begin with.
Now there also many people who say that they want a marriage to make sure their partner is committed. To me, a person who says they cannot expect loyalty and commitment unless their partner agrees to marry them is a person who displays a severe lack of trust, confidence and faith in their partner. A crucial flaw which wouldn't work out too well for a relationship to begin with.
I'm quoting the next point from a post from another member, MikeLong, here. I originally wanted to answer you in that thread, but the lack of a reply button was getting on my nerves, sorry.
- If shit goes south, marriage makes us try harder to preserve the relationship, rather than simply cast it aside as just another failed relationship.
Again, I think this should go without having to be married. If the relationship is worth it you should put all effort in, but not because you think "Oh well, we're married now. And it's kinda too much work to get divorced anyway." If marriage is your only incentive to keep a relationship alive, it's not a relationship of love as it is a cold iron chain locking you together.
More importantly though, just because a relationship is over doesn't mean it's failed. We fall in love, and then often we get jaded, and it's over. But that doesn't mean it wasn't worthwhile, that it was a waste of time, or that it failed. We experience something nice, and then it's time to move on. What marriage does is hold you trapped, after you've had enough. And I believe that the idea of an ended relationship being a "failed" relationship is something, more often than not, pushed into our culture by clergy. They are mostly the ones we hear bitching about divorce rates in secular countries and how it's somehow directly related to the moral decline in that country. That's bullshit. The only thing a divorce means is that two people no longer want to be together. What does the reason matter? Clergy often pretend like it's because people turn gay and the men divorce their wives because they want to go to a gay bar and have wild gay sex out of wedlock (ironically the solution would be to allow same-sex marriage, but I digress). But even if it were so, so what? How would it make those two people any more happy if they were continuously trapped in a marriage? Even when, at first, only one of the two partners wants a divorce, to me it would be much more horrible to force the other person to stay married. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want me anymore. Platonic love doesn't end well for either party.
So what I'm rambling on about it that ending a relationship is not always a bad thing. Call me a cynic, but I believe that it's a good time even most of the time. Something sucks, you work at it. But at some point you have to stop and accept that it might just not be worth it to try and pick up all the pieces off of the floor so you can glue them together and hope it sticks for just a little while longer. At some point you just have to leave the pieces lie and move the fuck on.
- marriage is the sacred bond between a man and a woman
Obviously, this is an argument that comes from the theist camp. Now I'm not going to argue about how retarded it is to suggest that gays have any less of a right to a marriage, we already know that, but instead tell you why I think religion loves pairing different genders so much. It's because man + woman = baby. Baby = another unit in the army. That's it. Nothing profound to it. Sacred bond my ass. It's about growing numbers like a virus. Rulers in all ages understood that if you want to build a powerful nation, what you need are people. Many many people. As many as possible. Living conditions, quality of life - doesn't matter. If he can hold a weapon and become cannon-fodder he's good enough. Same reason religion values men more than women. They're physically stronger. Same reason clergy are against abortion, it kills potential units and dwindles their numbers. (It also kills off all the pussy in the age range they like.)
- We do it for the civil / legal / financial rights.
I actually don't know enough about this to be able to fairly comment, so I'd love some input. Obviously I still don't like it. I know people who have been together for years but have no intentions of getting married for any benefits, my own sister included, and they seem to lead happy lives. But are the benefits worth compromising your integrity?Is there no other way to achieve those rights? Would it be at all possible for us to change this? I'm aware that gays fight for marriage because they want the rights that come with it. Now I remember Strega saying in a different thread that if they made some other civil construct which would allow her, as a gay person, to have all the benefits of a usual marriage provides, she'd do it right away. Even if it wasn't called a marriage. Do you agree with this, or do you think that, if anything, both straight people and gays should get the exact same thing? In which case it cannot be a religious union, because all major religions are homophobic. And so...I'm tired.
That's it for now. I actually have much more to say, but I kinda already wrote more than usual and I'm getting bored and I'm sure I've bored most of you by now too. I might add some later. Cut me some slack!
Um? I was just commenting on his discussion. Not sure what you're talking about.
I was asking what Unseen was talking about - I'm beginning to think I just walked into the middle of a "Who's On First" rehearsal!
Hahaha yeah but he was commenting to me, so I was just responding. Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't get it.
Sorry to poke in so late - especially since the original post was aimed, to some extent, in response to my post.
I, too, hate the missing "Reply" link.
"Cut me some slack!"
Yeah, like you do, right? :-)
" o It's a public declaration of loyalty. / It shows commitment.?"
I think the word "public" is key, here. We humans are social creatures. We tend not to live our lives in isolation. Marriage is a long-standing mechanism for carving your niche in society. "We are a couple. We're not just dating. We're not just friends. There are many kinds of relationships - this is ours. We are a COUPLE - presumably with EXCLUSIVE sexual commitments. What the word "marriage" says to others, to the general public, is more important than the private commitment.
" o cast it aside as just another failed relationship"
I DO believe that such a commitment can, at some stage, influence a partner toward fixing rather than abandoning of a relationship; but that's not the sole purpose of marriage. Humans do tend to mate for life. You will no doubt point out that 50% of marriages "fail". I will, in turn, point out that 50% are actually for life - a HUGE percentage when one considers all the factors.
" o "sacred""
" o "legal""
So much to say. Too complicated. Not really interested.
"Humans do tend to mate for life"
Not necessarily - perhaps serial monogamy. But how many humans have had a single sexual partner their entire life? And, "monogamy" did not evolve in the context of an average life span of 70+ years.
For further reading (as a start),
You will no doubt point out that 50% of marriages "fail". I will, in turn, point out that 50% are actually for life
You said it not me. 50% of all marriages end in divorce, the other 50% end in death. There's just no winning!
As I've said before, I think legal unions with terms for one year to life should be purchasable (similar to licenses for cars, etc) and renewable if desired. If no renewal, automatic dissolution - no divorce needed. Think about it, how many more people would continue bettering themselves, stay fit, etc., if they knew their "contract" was up for renewal?
As long as they don't have children.
I am tempted to agree with kOrsan on this question of marriage. I have been trying to get an answer from my friends why they want to get married and I get a myriad of answers from wanting someone to grow old with, security, raise children and so on and I have said if someone finds these as reason enough to get married, then by all means marry but I really can't say at the moment that I have found one convincing answer to marry.
A man, at least, can simply and quickly resolve the marriage conundrum, eliminating a considerable number if interim steps and a bit of anguish for himself as well - just find a woman who can't stand you and give her a house.
kOrsan, you had a lot to say. It's apparent you don't see the need for marriage, which is okay. There are many people that don't believe in marriage either. But let me warn you, when you're a bit older and wiser you might eventually fall in love. And I think that's fabulous, however, make sure that the girl you love feels the same way about marriage. You gotta be upfront about these kinds of things because believe it or not, even though it's 2013 there are girls out there that want to meet the man of their dreams and get married. The horror.
Sometimes couples marry due to peer pressure from their relatives. "So, when is he gonna pop the question?" "You've been dating for 4 years, when's the big day?" Stuff like that. Trust me, I heard it a bunch of times as I approached my sixth year with hubby, my then boyfriend. I respect my family and his too much to tell them to screw off. Sue me.
But it wasn't the main reason why we married. We sat and talked about it at great lengths. The legal/financial rights weighed a bit and eventually won.
But what what was at the core of it all was our love and committment for each other. Had a friend do the ceremony and had a party. Ten years later and we're still going strong. People get married for different reasons. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, then that's fine too.
I'm glad you are happy. I have a question, though. What if the legal /financial rights weren't an issue. What if they were not part of the equation due to legislative changes?