Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ed on November 4, 2011 at 8:43am

@Unseen

I'm not sure in what sense a fetus can "feel." I don't even remember being circumcised, which I'm sure, done as an adult, would hurt like hell. In fact, I have no memories much before my second year, and those are very hazy, like being in an inflatable baby pool in my parents' backyard. I'm pretty sure the fetus isn't thinking "OMG, I'm being killed!"

 

The ability of an organism to sense a stimuli is an issue from my point of view. If you grab a fetus with forceps and it reacts to the pincers penetrating it's body then there is pain taking place. If the abortion is necessary, for whatever reason, then it would be inhumane to not medicate the fetus first. I would think consideration for the unborn on a par at least equal to what dogs and cats receive at the veterinary clinic would be justified. There's a little more going on here than just grabbing a shop vac and cleaning your car's carpet.

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Permalink Reply by Ed on November 4, 2011 at 8:51am

@ Dale

 

Have you heard a single one of them demand that American soldiers cease and desist from murdering Iraqi children because they, too, have a "right to life"?  Of course not!  No, it's not reverence for life that motivates them, it's Old Testament male domination.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to compare the right to life of a fetus and an indoctrinated 7 year old Iraqi child who is strapped with an IED and instructed to engage an American soldier(s).  

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Permalink Reply by Ed on November 4, 2011 at 9:15am

No one has mentioned the responsibility issue of women who have repeated abortions. Should abortion be considered an expensive form of birth control? Is it ultimately the women's responsibility to ensure she does or does not get pregnant? Should sterilization be considered at some point?

 

I had the traumatic experience of assisting my first girlfriend as she went through an early stage abortion. It affects both of us to this day. There are mental aspects of this procedure that cannot be fathomed until you have experienced it first hand. I'll never forget the day I sat in the clinic's waiting room and witnessed another woman about to have the procedure. She was so flippant and upbeat about it all. It was as if she was about to have a manicure done or something. 

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Permalink Reply by scLovely on November 4, 2011 at 10:40am

I have had the experience first hand. It was the best decision of my life. I was very young, couldn't provide for a child, and would have no help in doing so. Prior to my getting pregnant, I asked my mom to take me to get birth control and she refused. She told me that it would be "giving me permission" to have sex. Shortly after, I became pregnant. She did the right thing by taking me to the abortion clinic and I have never looked back. That has been about 11 or 12 yrs ago now. I still don't have any children and I plan on keeping it that way.

The place was packed when I was in there. I could only imagine if all of these women had decided to have children. We think we are looking at an over-population problem now? Ha! Thank you to all of the abortion clinics out there helping us keep it under control :)

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Permalink Reply by Cristynfaye on November 4, 2011 at 1:32pm

It's my belief that counseling should be provided before and after an abortion.  Especially for teenagers who have them.  I've heard of the trauma that they cause for many people, and I can't believe we are allowing them to be done without any mental health or emotional therapy for those who need it.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on November 4, 2011 at 2:17pm

For most women, it is no different than having some cramps and a little extra bleeding.  While it is difficult for me to fathom that a significant percentage of women would find the experience any different than other routine, outpatient procedures, if someone were to request counseling then it should be provided.  But to offer it before and after to women who not only don't need or want it, but may find the very offer of it more traumatizing than the actual procedure, seems self defeating. It reminds me of conservative efforts to emotionally blackmail women by making them pretend to be a mommy with a baby doll or name their fetus prior to following through with the abortion. 

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Permalink Reply by Ed on November 4, 2011 at 8:19pm

I truly can't understand how offering counseling to a woman would be somehow traumatizing or self defeating. You accept or decline the offer. End of story. I wish it had been offered to my girlfriend in the seventies.  Offers to counsel are an important step in the right direction. As unsettling as it was for me I know the male gender really can't make a comment on the ramifications a woman might possibly experience. Just as they'll never understand the actual process of childbirth.  

 

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on November 4, 2011 at 9:59pm

Then there is no sense in me trying to explain, if you truly can not understand it.

And because a male may never experience certain things intimately, it does not mean they are clueless to the point of being dumbstruck.  I've spoken to women who have had abortions and read many first hand accounts of experiences from the female perspective.  I can comment on it and I'm confident that many (not all) women would agree with much of what I say on the subject.

 

But, let's try and see if you can truly understand or not.  Regarding counseling, in some cases, are simply an excuse to guilt and shame women. Whether it is forcing women to listen to fetal heartbeats, or making them choose a name for their fetus they had planned to abort, or carry a baby doll around for a couple of days so they can experience what they are passing up, not all "counseling" is created equal.  And these are techniques that have actually been used or proposed. So, I should have been more clear.  If women are being offered general medical counsel, then I have no issues.  If women are being offered grief counseling, then I take a huge umbrage with that.

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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on November 5, 2011 at 6:55pm

Actually... no ed. In my state... it's not optional. You MUST go to a pro-life counseling session and wait at least 24 hours before getting an abortion.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on November 6, 2011 at 12:50am

So the state doesn't have enough power already. Now we are going to have to get state approval for medical procedures?!!!

I would be more in favor of people (especially teens) getting counseling before they get tattoos or radical piercings. The counseling will remind them that they will probably be 45 year old soccer parents or insurance sales people someday.

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Permalink Reply by scLovely on November 4, 2011 at 4:18pm

It was mandatory at the clinic I went to. I did not want or need it, but they made everyone do it. But I don't know how they do it now, this was about 12 yrs ago. 

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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on November 5, 2011 at 6:55pm

Counseling should be accurate and aimed at providing real help though! The type of counseling required by many states for women seeking an abortion is usually a requirement to go to a place like a crisis pregnancy center where women are threatened with hell, told lies like abortion will cause breast cancer or the (completely pseudoscientific and anti-choice invented) "post abortion stress syndrome), as well as shown graphic pictures of the rare 3rd trimester abortion fetuses and be told inaccurate information on the status of their fetus... usually projecting the status of a fetus in the first trimester or 2nd trimester into the third trimester. I know what they tell women. That their fetus can already feel pain at 8 weeks, among other lies. The other problem is that our government is funding these abominations called "crisis pregnancy centers" which are often disguised as offering "options" for women with unwanted pregnancies, with deceptive names like the one in my area called "Pregnancy Help Center." The bigger problem though is that these organizations are overtly and aggressively reactionary religious Christian. They do not hold back on religious threats and religious "couseling" that the government - in my state and many others - forces upon any woman wanting an abortion... by law. One story involved a woman who accidently walked into a CPC seeking abortion and was barred from leaving until she consented to an ultrasound with the words "Hi mommy" written on the pictures and watching a graphic religious video about abortion.

Besides being unconstitutional, this is unethical to force women to go through this.

I agree... counseling should be an OPTIONAL service available to women before and after an abortion. Most women do not suffer from abortion, but in the tragic cases where a much-wanted pregnancy threatens a woman's life or there is something horribly wrong with a much-wanted fetus... then therapy would be a great thing to make available. 

But I seriously doubt that these women who do suffer from loss would be in any way helped by "counseling" in which volunteers from anti-choice organizations show them pictures of what their much-wanted dead fetus would look like, call them murderers, and slam bibles down their throats (metaphorically speaking on that last one).

Grief counseling ... REAL grief counseling should be optionally available in these cases.

But make no mistake! The "counseling" required by law right now is anything but!

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