Libertarian Arguments Are Wearing Thin
I'm an advocate for the a third or fourth party having power in the US. We swing right, we swing left and we are moving away from having balance. I perceive this being the case since about 94, but that's when I was turning 20 and my political radar was heating up. So admittedly, this could have been going on longer.
I have been taking a look at Libertarianism. I voted for Bob Barr in the last presidential election. Being from Washington State, voting for Obama was a waste because our Electoral Votes were a forgone conclusion months prior to the election. After the last couple of years of looking, I'm feeling like I'm seeing through the thin fabric that is holding the Libertarian position together.
A Libertarian FB friend puts up this article.(tl/dr) that goes on to describe how capitalism developed everything that we love and only capitalism can do that. I hack it apart noting the article says that capitalism created the middle class, but disparages unions. It's a historically dishonest position. It's not incorrect, it's an outright lie. Henry Ford used to force his employees to live in dry cities and take his anti-Semitic magazine. The weekend and 8 hour work days were brought to you by Marxism in the form of the modern union. Capitalism had nothing to do with that. Worker Safety,came from government.
I get back a reply that no, capitalism will breed all of these things if left alone. I ask for one single example of capitalism leading to environmental responsibility. Crickets.... Next guy describes the difference between corporatism and capitalism (nice deflection of reality by the way). Again, I ask for an example. Crickets...
I'm running towards the conclusion that Libertarianism is nothing but arguments from a utopia that doesn't, hasn't, and never will exist. It hasn't ever been created because it's the selling of ideas and not a workable plan. Capitalism without socialism in the form of a government Attorney General standing watch will lead to one kid having the ball and bullying the rest. History shows us that as well.
Can anyone talk me out of holding the position that Libertarianism is anything but preaching utopian ideals with no substance behind it?
Tags: Libertarianism, Utopian
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt on -
I agree with you 100% Gaytor. As someone that is nearing the age of 20 I can say the same thing is happening to me involving my interest in politics. Looking at libertarianism quickly I can say that it is nothing more than an ideology with no facts to back it up. It would be nice if corporations could be trusted, and all people would do the right things. But in reality the human race falls short of the demands for a libertarian society. There is no reason for anyone to think that libertarianism is possible in the world we live in, especially in the recent financial crisis. This past year they have shown us what they will do with no one watching over their shoulder, can you imagine what will happen with all regulations taken away?
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on -
My political radar did not really heat up until my late twenties. By then, I think, I was already too old for Libertarianism. But when I was younger, I am not sure I was smart enough for it. But, it always seems to be the province of college students and educated twenty-somethings. And I have found that Atlas Shrugged and Objectivism is, if not at the heart of it, is largely surrounding the heart of Libertarianism. And Objectivism is another philosophy that seems to secretly be driven by emotion and idealogy and falls apart under critical inquiry.
This idea that the free market, unhindered, is the salve for all our ills is demonstrated to be false nearly everyday in the news. How anyone can think unfettered Capitalism is good for anyone but the top elite, to the exclusion of most of the population, is beyond me. And frustratingly, whenever I point out Capitalism's glaring faults and despite never mentioning other political philosophy, I am immediately treated to an attack on Socialism (I get this from Republicans, too). Emotion and idealogy; they turn off the thinking caps. And despite cold rationalism supposedly at the heart of this, it all seems to be lip service.
The free market values put forth would require a very large amount of babies to die before a defective baby crib was brought to the attention of consumers. And then enough consumers would need to be made aware of this defective crib in order to spurn the company to action or put them out of business. This is how free market regulates itself at times; with graves.
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on
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Yeah, this is true. Well known Skeptic and not in his twenties, Michael Shermer, is a Libertarian. However, he doesn't buy into Objectivism. At least, not anymore.
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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on -
"This is how free market regulates itself at times; with graves."
Very nice ending. I find it inexplicable, the notion that we are a capitalist country. Really, what document says that? After this question they'll ignore the point and roll back into preaching ideology. Feels like a NASCAR argument.
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Permalink Reply by Silenus on -
Feels like a NASCAR argument.
What does that mean?
And what do you think about Ralph Nader?
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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on
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NASCAR because we hit the straight away making a Point and then we turn 180 degrees. You see Forrest, I've got the power and gear to rue'em down (spits) but she's a lil' loose on this greasy track and I think that I need another wedge in the right rear. Until I get that wedge it's a never ending circular argument.
I don't think that I've given Nader a fair shake. His book Dangerous at Any Speed. was presented as over the top and so I have discounted him. His position on the 2000 election and his voters not playing a final role is silly. Any suggestions on where I might be able to get some fair info on him?
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on
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Good point on the government being founded on political philosophy rather than economic.
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Permalink Reply by Michael R on -
In the late 80s I looked into the local Libertarian party as an alternative to the Republican/Democrat coin that was flipping in Idaho. I actually found quite a bit that appealed to me; and still do. However, there was one thing that I didn't agree with and that was the position on business/free market. I was an avid reader of sci-fi and could relate the message to several books that I had read, but that was fiction. As in today's economy, there is no such thing as a free market (which Libertarians will agree)...and there never will be. A free market is just fiction.
I have worked in many large corporations where the driving force is the next quarterly results...period. This is all due to the short term greed of the stock holders/owners (just like kids screaming "I want it now!") This has been at the expense of the long term viability of the company and the safety of the employees. Luckily I have not been involved in anything that put the public at risk. Greed is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can do funny things to people. The most destructive being putting on those "short-term gains blinders" at the expense of health/life of others.
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Permalink Reply by Reggie on
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Greed is not the sole driver, though. Results are. Stockholders are divorced from much of what happens within their company. They require only favorable results. Managers are then required to deliver those results, so they issue decrees down the chain of command. Everyone is a cog in the wheel an most don't see the overall picture that their role plays.
You might argue that greed is driving the demand for favorable results, but the investors invest for one reason and one reason only; favorable returns. Whether they are fat cats in gated communities or a middle class Schmoe dabblin in the market. If they don't get results, they will either no longer invest or will put pressure to replace upper management with someone who can.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Paul Renner on -
When you examine all the parties in the U.S. you will find the same. Getting elected is just politicians telling the people what they want to hear. We are governed by a plutocracy that places profits over people, the environment and all aspects of our lives.
If we really want change we have to redirect our energies into a new form of governing humanity that uses consensus and the scientific method based on our ideas of equality for all, instead of politics. Other wise we will always be sheep lead by the wolves. Politics is just a faith based game.
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Permalink Reply by Mario Rodgers on -
As a person who one day wants to own his own truck and operate a small business, I still have defend capitalism.
I'm not part of a union. Last week I worked a 10 hour day for the new minimum wage. I think regulatory limits are still important. I think we call this socialized capitalism, but I prefer the term ethical capitalism.
However I'm not a big fan of a government system that tells Joe Hardworker who makes 5,000 widgets an hour he has to make the same amount of money as the ten Bob Easydoesits who make 300 widgets an hour.
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