I am a Christian theist, and I am inviting atheists to talk with me about the nose in our face.

I read this text in your website:

[quote] Think Atheist is your safe place to come out and learn how to have a dialog with friends, family, and strangers about your belief that the world was not created but is in its current state because of complicated and beautifully unguided processes. [/quote]

You are saying that the nose came about by unguided processes?


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"Take this example, you are in the jungle and you have a guide, he is directing your travel and he is your protector, your travel in the jungle is not an unguided process."


So the guide would stop me from walking into a lion's den.  I can even prove that the guide did so.  If I walk into a lion's den, no god will stop me and if I choose to turn around, I can't prove that any god turned me around.


"The conception of a baby and its gestation in the womb of its mother is certainly not unguided, there is a program and this program is the guided process."


Well I'm glad we never have to worry about birth defects then, since there's a program, which should run the same way every time because it's a program, and there's a guider/protector which should prevent anything from going wrong.

The "program" is the process of development that every organic being
undergoes, and it has nothing to do with your imaginary friend.


Guidance from an actual dictionary and not your made-up nonsense is the act or process of guiding. It has nothing whatsoever to do with direction or protection (or the existence
of a god - and another thing: by positing a god, you make a positive
claim, therefore back it up. Where's your evidence? Can you provide a
fraction of the amount of evidence that has been given to you, or are
you just going to waffle? I'm betting on the latter).


By assuming that evolution by natural selection has a direction or intends to protect organisms, you are begging the question of an intelligence that propels evolution, or personifying it. Evolution by
natural selection is an unguided process both by your definition and the
actual definition.


{Edited because I was being a jerk - see my apology below}

So, who created the creator?

"1. How can any event which is random be ever a preliminary event to another event which is not random, when the second event is already vitiated by the first one which is random, for being connected to the first one which is random? The second and succeeding events are in a way contaminated by the first event which is random."


Well, this is a very long way to describe opportunity.  A nonrandom reaction to a random or randomly presented circumstance.  It doesn't violate anything.


"2. How can evolution be scientific when it is not falsifiable?"


I think you're getting falsifiable and verifiable mixed up here.


"anything that is now stable"


Who said it was stable now?  You're missing the time frame this works in.  You may never notice any change on a macro scale in several of your lifetime.


"and no one can do an experiment on it for it takes millions of years which is an indefinite duration of years"


Well this is flat out wrong as many people have tried to tell you already in this thread.  Experiments can be done on a microorganism scale, through computer simulations of natural selection through predator/prey relationships etc.


"If you ascribe to millions of years for an explanation of anything that is now stable, then you can explain everything no matter how absurd"


Nope, it still wouldn't account for a god or gods.

I suggest you read up about natural selection.  It's not random (or in your words "unguided").  It's just not explained by a big magic man who lives invisibly up in the sky, but instead by a slow process where certain useful genes survive and those that are less useful (or harmful, etc.) don't, and is at least partially determined by the type of plant/animal and its environment.  Now, if something seems just too complex to have developed in this manner and thus "must" have had a creator, then you have the question of where this even more complex creator came from.  You have to keep moving up in levels of complexity to find even more complicated explanations, which is illogical.  I remind you of the acronym KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).   

I think the nose is as much evidence of how evolution works as the selection involved in breeding dogs. The process of various types of selection are right there. Dog selection isn't ALL artificial. Wolves turned into a primitive kind of dog when those who stuck close to humans lived longer by scavenging food from us. Their fight or flight radius became small enough for us to begin breeding them for specific traits. Voila! Dogs! We turned foxes into a domesticated "dog" like breed in just ten years of selection. In the wild, the ones selecting are mates and predators and prey instead of humans. For that monkey, the nose attracts mates and intimidates rivals. So only males with the biggest noses are breeding and having offspring that inherit that trait. It's simple logic. So the answer is YES. But "unguided" doesn't mean accidental or by chance.

So...uhhh...did the "eye design" argument run its course?

Thank you. ;D

Yes thanks - very good   - that is definetely an answer - I am eagerly awaiting a response.

Why is this even a debate? Even the Vatican recognizes evolution now.



I tell it because, all these years churches have been saying how wrong evolution is and those who "believe" in it  are sinners etc. Now that they admit they were wrong about evolution what else are they wrong about.... Might wake a few people up.

So the proof for God's existence hasn't just been right under my nose...it's actually been my nose this entire time!


I guess my next question is: does this mean that boogers are divine?  I mean, if my nose is the product of divine design and boogers seem to be a part of that design, aren't my boogers then divinely inspired?  What sacrilege it must be every time a load of holy snot is carelessly blown into a tissue to be discarded! God must weep to see Kleenex prevail.


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