As a proud nonbeliever I watch documentaries on any given religious topic with a bias, a rather notable one. What I've found though is that, while on our side we have facts, logic, reason, and for the most part good intentions, we go about the whole thing with too much hostility. The religious people that convert and maintain faith are honestly good people who also have good intentions, as far as I can tell they all truly have faith and want to help those without.
Even if the facts on our side are stronger, love doesn't flow from facts and unfortunately that is how the argument is presented from our side most of the time, as facts. Not to mention all the angry protests I have seen against the holy this or that.
This is my main point, calm down Atheists. If you are forced to argue instead of debate, keep a cool head, and argue the indisputable facts with a smile. Sure, many of them are very stupid and will make this easy on you but the faster we can take the rage from our words, the faster our words will be heard.
1. The facts on "our side" are not stronger. It's that only we have the facts, strong or weak. The only thing religion has are tales, word-games, and embroidery.
2. The niceness theists exhibit is the same kind a child rapist would, while trying to lure a little kid into his car. Yes, he's offering you candy and he wants to show you his bunny, but there's a tear and blood stained mattress in the back of his van.
3. We don't have to be nice because the truth speaks for itself. We're not in the business of selling people shit, like clergy are in the business of selling faith. That's what they are, salesmen. Religion exists for the sole benefit of clergy, and clergy exist for the sole benefit of clergy. Clergy don't buy that shit themselves. They know it's a scam, and they know how to play it. And any regular theist who actually does believe all that is just caught in a Stockholm syndrome. We don't have that. We don't have to pretend like we're trying to sell people a faulty product, so we don't have to pretend like we should decorate its presentation. We can only offer the truth, you either like it or you don't. It doesn't have to be sugarcoated just so some theist dipshit who can't control his feelings won't be offended.
unfortunately that is how the argument is presented from our side most of the time, as facts.
That a joke? You're saying we should emulate theists and argue from emotions. Should we appeal to their emotions only, or should we go the whole way and appeal to fear as well? Maybe we should ditch facts altogether, since they're so mean, and tell theists they're going to burn in a place called "HOLL" for all eternity unless they convert to our religio -er atheism.
Ok, Bravo to everything you said - and one up by saying that perhaps we should start telling theists that we will burn them AND their families alive if they don't convert to atheism; I mean, isn't that what they are selling with their beaming smiles? Or are those smiles just the result of vacant minds?
If we said we would burn them, then we'd be like them. Lot of those minds aren't vacant, simply indoctrinated...and for some, apparently some logic is destroyed in the process. But not all, Dan Barker and those in the clergy project somehow salvaged their logic.
Here's another way of looking at it. How do you appeal to emotion-driven people? You need the right tool for the job. Sometimes facts aren't enough. There are people driven by logic and there are people driven by emotion. Deal with it.
Deal with it.
... in the best ways one knows how. There's no, best way for everyone.
I try to avoid those kind of people for the same reasons I try to avoid children. They're annoying and irrational. Rational people shouldn't have to adapt to the irrational ones just to appeal to them, it should be the other way around. Adults shouldn't have to act like kids, kids should grow up.
If facts aren't enough, then you're talking to the wrong people. Emotion driven people are always going to be suckers and slaves to their current whims, desires and moods. If facts aren't enough to sway you, but a bunch of platitudes and tear-jerking words that appeal to your emotions are, then you're simply nothing but a fool. The tool is not the problem, neither is the job, it's the client. You can't sell running shoes to a cripple.
If you want to reach people, you have to communicate in a way that they understand.
I agree, Kairan.
Some of us want to reach people; others of us want to express our needs.
"Rational people shouldn't have to adapt to the irrational ones just to appeal to them, it should be the other way around."
Irrational people do not understand the need or, many times, even the skills necessary to adapt. As rational people we should should understand that and do our best to adapt and subsequently they would begin to themselves. Irrational people are children, but children need adults to guide them to adulthood. To me it seems to only make sense to use their path to lead them to ours.
"You can't sell running shoes to a cripple."
Unless you're a great salesman.
Let us freed slaves be angry for a while. Atheists come from all walks of life and some us went through a living a hell and paid for our freedom.
Appeal to emotion, is the tactic of the preacher and the funeral plan salesmen alike. I think Ethos, Pathos, Logos are the fundamentals of Aristotle's work. Pathos is easy to spot..and targeted to the most vulnerable.
Clergy don't buy that shit themselves. They know it's a scam, and they know how to play it.
This is where you're wrong. An organization as big as the church, every single denomination of it, doesn't go on existing if every higher member doesn't believe in it. It's blindly cynical to think they don't either. No, they are the same as Charles Manson, a man I think gets too hard a rap for what he did. Because he wasn't tricking people. He believed his own hype, he was acting on what he believed was the truth. And yet he was still a very violent and dangerous individual.
No, the clergy almost certainly do believe every contradictory word that comes out of their mouth. Find a copy of "The God Virus: How Religion Affects Our Lives and Culture" by Darrel Ray. He explains quite clearly how they can spew their bile without seeing their own flaws.
No, what the OP is suggesting is not that we act like theists, he's just suggesting that we don't be so defensive and hostile. It is possible to have a debate without turning to demeaning insults and bad juju.