I would like to try this again but first can I just let you know that I am an atheist who is trying to understand the religious point of view. This is not the same thing agreeing with them but I truly am trying to see it from their angle. I want to step into their shoes and I want to feel it the way they feel it and in that way, hopefully try to solve problems with them instead of against them. This is empathy. This is peace.
About the name I use - Evangelia is my Mothers name and the English version of that is Angela. It makes me happy to see my mothers name. David is a biblical name to but that doesnt mean people named David are religious.
When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME
Why did they tell?
Go to another church ....
So make them live a lie or force them underground? ?
Why does the church object to them having a "civil" marriage for legal reasons that have nothing to do with religion.
The Catholic Church has long had a lukewarm feeling about civil marriages. Marriage is a religious sacrament. To the extent civil marriages are consonant with the religious form (voluntary, adults, man and woman, vows with intention of being permanent), it's less objectionable.
When civil law starts to move away from that (ex. arranged marriages of children, which is still practiced some places), the Church objects more.
The ability to contract a partnership in civil law that has essentially the same effect is less of an issue. It's not pretending to be the (religious ritual sacrament of) marriage. That's not to say that the Church won't teach that arranged civil partnerships of children are a bad idea in other ways for a society, but when it comes to adults there's less of an issue.
@Dr. Bob - Within Catholicism, mortal sin has to involve a grave matter (like murder), and requires both knowledge that it's wrong and deliberate intent to do wrong.
There are many ex-catholics on this site, they understand the indoctrination and brainwashing that was a personal experience. We know the fear instilled, we know that the statement that the church does not judge, is codswallop, - not true. The church and its apologists may say that, but in downtown suburbia, this is not practised,
Masturbation is still a mortal sin - and therefore equated with murder - a person doesn't need to be told murder is not acceptable in society. It is the obsession with sex in all religions, that I find amusing - and yet sex with children has been constantly and methodically covered up.
I would think it odd for the Atheists to want to participate etc -
The numbers of couples marrying in church is dropping, as is marriage itself, and preferring the local park. It is social conditioning, countries where education and thinking are strong, xianity per se is losing influence. When theists see the hypocrisy in religion, they are questioning their own belief system.
The church and the bible are the best protagonists for Atheism.
Where they exchange perpetual vows - that is the problem, they are not perpetual vows, divorce is rampant among the xian community, and that is another flow onto religion, especially the catholic church losing influence, so off to the park, with a celebrant, we go.
I would love to go to a Hindu wedding, it goes for days, lots of bling, fabulous clothes, but especially the food, three days of eating, wow. Christian weddings are really boring compared to Hindu weddings.
The vatican, also known as The Palace, understands how people are influenced by bling, which is why there is so much gold in there. All very superficial, no humanity, no depth.
Humans are superficial, which is why it can take months to plan a wedding, but the majority of the planning goes into the reception and what sort of flowers are going on the table, and who shall they sit Uncle Fred next to? They are not recognizing the need for religion in their lives, they just want to look the best they ever have, and have a lot of photographs taken - all very superficial - been there done that :)
The last pope dropped the opposition of condoms and contraceptive pill, twisting the reasons for doing so, so as not too lose face.
We don't spend very much time thinking about or talking about homosexuality at all - well, it is to theists detriment that they don't. This is a huge issue in secular circles, that gays in partnership do not have exactly the same rights as the rest of community. The new pope certainly won't say or do anything about it, but secular societies, and people with a conscience, morals and ethics about humanity, will see this change, with the catholic church kicking and screaming in the meantime, and the catholic church, will once again, lose even more power.
The hypocrisy in the catholic church never ceases to amaze me, Mary Macillop, a nun, was excommunicated because she exposed a pedophile priest. There was outrage from the community, the pope saw the hypocrisy was exposed, so they made her a saint. Hilarious. any priest who questions celibacy, equal rights for for gays, exposes pedophiles, out you go, but the priests who were actually raping little children, off you go to confession, and then we will move you to somewhere where they don't know what criminal acts we are covering up.
The catholic church is losing power everyday, while it is the sheep, no doubt good sheep, that are propping up this evil institution.
"The last pope dropped the opposition of condoms and contraceptive pill,"
Is this true? I admit I don't follow church news, but wouldn't this news obviate a lot of the discussion here lately.
@Mike - Yep, secular society push hard enough, and Voila - the catholics could see this was a losing battle, how people were dying from all sorts of diseases. The upside is that women are not walking incubators. There are groups of women in third world countries, going from village to village with huge supplies of condoms. The smile on their face is priceless. There is more education needed for the men, it doesn't feel real good, but they understand, more bonking, less children. That works.
The link you provided is of The Telegraph dated Sunday 17 March 2013 - today - in NZ; but the pic showed Pope Benedict. Perhaps the date on the newspaper was actually a "field" which generates "Today's Date".
Read the article closely. Pope Benedict didn't okay condoms for contraception but only when used strictly for prophylaxis, to prevent HIV/AIDS. So, if the guy can get it up but doesn't want to play conception roulette, then he's not allowed to use a condom.
You don't have to read the article closely even, one can see the hypocrisy raise it's head, once again. The catholic church realised the uproar around the world, over the catholic church banning contraception, they had to put a spin on it, so they didn't lose face. They can't put a spin on gay partnerships, nor can they put a spin on millions of dollars being laundered by the vatican church. They pick their battles.
Once the vatican made the decree, the women in a Heath Department didn't care how or why the vatican changed it's mind, they were on the road, spreading condoms to as many women as they could find.
"There are many ex-catholics on this site, they understand the indoctrination and brainwashing that was a personal experience. We know the fear instilled, we know that the statement that the church does not judge, is codswallop, - not true. The church and its apologists may say that, but in downtown suburbia, this is not practised,"
I'm sorry you've found Catholics who are not as well-informed or good about practicing their religion as they could be. Religion sets aspirational goals for people and tries to inspire them to be thoughtful and learn more and do well. That doesn't mean that every adherent of a religion is a saint, or thoughtful, or well informed, or that they just don't have a bad day sometimes.
If you grew up Catholic, an important part of growing up is to question your faith, and perhaps reject it for a time. The way Catholicism is taught to children is typically the way a lot of things are taught to children - simplistically, and authoritatively. "Don't touch the stove, Mommy said so!" comes out sometimes in all parents. Every adult needs to pull away from that and reject such simplicity on their road to a mature understanding of faith.
Yes, part of that mature understanding is recognizing the difference between faith and its adherents, the same as with any discipline. Feynman was quite a womanizer. Did his failings or hypocrisy in his personal life affect the validity of the physics he taught? At some point we all come to accept that people can be human, with personal failings and hypocrisy, and yet still teach us some things that are valid.
@Reg Your question would the catholic church recognize male and female gays getting married -That is happening at the moment - for family reasons, they can't come out, or their job, they will get the sack, so they pretend to be hetero. They live separate lives, it is called mixed orientation marriage. How sad is it that people are forced, because of the society they happen to be in, to live like this.
What does Prof. Bob say - OK or not, and you can't be judgmental :)
@kOrsan - exactly - been married, all the usual vows, divorce. Been living with my bloke for 25 years, de acto, works a treat. Nothing to do with ceremony, vows, pretty church, whatever. I also don't know why gays want to get married, but there you go, if they do, it is not the church who has any right to stop them.