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Permalink Reply by Peter Metcalfe on October 17, 2010 at 4:48am

According to the book "The Jesus Mysteries" and numerous websites there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed (see http://www.jesusneverexisted.com) which sound far more convincing to me than the theist's "evidence" that he did. I am wide open to the possibility he existed as a man but I haven't seen any convincing evidence yet.

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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on October 17, 2010 at 6:29pm

Another two books that suggest that jesus never existed are "Jesus is Dead" by Robert M. Price:
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Dead-Robert-M-Price/dp/1578840007/ref=s...

And "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew" by Frank Zindler
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Jews-Never-Knew-Historical/dp/157884916...

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Permalink Reply by Jason on October 17, 2010 at 6:26am

Well I never really thought about this until I read some of Hitchen’s books…. At first glance the whole turn the other cheek and forgive/forgive/forgive seems like the noble thing to do. But as Hitch point out – it’s not a good thing. If our society truly embraced Jesus’ teachings there would be no justice…no courts. Jesus taught to avoid judgment. Jesus concept of forgiveness is cult like and unachievable. No society has ever followed/embraced his concept of forgiveness.
Let say someone assaulted your sister. Jesus would tell you to forgive that person. But what about your sister’s due justice? Does she not have a right to retribution? Who are we to say someone should be forgiven especially when we are not directly involved? Let say someone assaulted you. Jesus would tell you to let them and forgive them. If you did that…you would have never made it out of the second grade alive.

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Permalink Reply by Michael on October 17, 2010 at 6:06pm

If you are going to live on the metaphysical side you do so hook and latter. You can not pick and choose and expect the supernatural to operate. Yes the teaching of Christ have the appearance of being foolish. This is reminiscent of the Movie 'Moses' when Pharaoh says that" Moses' God is a poor General, he doesn't leave them any retreat." However Moses was relying on the supernatural.

So, if you want to bring Christ teachings to the test you have put it into practice the entire teaching.

You must be a fool for Christ. " foolishness to Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews"

But the guarantee of living as a fool will be "The Angels will bear you up lest you dash your foot against a stone". "Your health will spring forth speedily and the Lord will be your rear guard.."

So be a fool for Christ and ride all airlines with the guarantee of not dying in a crash.

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Permalink Reply by Jesus_Was_A_Man_Or_Myth_Or_Both on October 17, 2010 at 6:16pm

May i point out that a movie is not reality - you cannot quote a Hollywood writer as an authority on the interaction between some Pharaoh and a person who most likely never existed - Moses in this case.

Diana Agorio's book "Sex Rites: The Origins of Christianity" has a better explanation for the Paul quote about fools.

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Permalink Reply by Michael on October 17, 2010 at 6:22pm

Appealing to what people know is just a delivery technique. Don't expect that quote to appear in any Journals

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Permalink Reply by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on October 17, 2010 at 6:57pm

Problem with that is that even though Jesus promised that misfortune would pass over the pious who chose to follow him, it does not.

Terror, death, violence, disease, poverty, natural disaster... these things strike people indiscriminately. The very fact that this happens brings into doubt the idea that "the lord will be your rear guard." To the atheist... the fact that misfortune strikes at random makes perfect sense.

The universe does not care whether you are good or evil, whether you live or die, whether you prosper or wither... the universe cannot care because it is not aware.

Nor should we be so arrogant as to proclaim that anything we pipsqueak humans can do will make our fortunes change by an outside force. Change your misfortunes if you are able to... if you can't... then you can't.

But in the scope of things... an individual organism is less than a blip on the universe's map and there is no reason for anything to care. It is up to humans to lessen eachothers suffering.

Humble is the realization that your place in the universe is of microscopic value and that you are no more important than the lowliest bacterium... nor should you be.

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Permalink Reply by Michael on October 17, 2010 at 8:25pm

This is the educated conclusion of course. But it would be nice to experiment with saintly living to test the word to see if it true. I don't mean sin during the week then going to the confessionals on weekends like Catholics. For instance do you know the meaning of a circumcised mind and to live with one? Or to always help the sick, hungry. Or to marry and never get divorced save for adultery. And if you are a woman that divorces her husband, never marry again as long as he is living in accordance with the words of Christ.

I do not see a single Christian denomination putting the complete word into practice.

As such I can not agree that anything can happen to true followers. What we need is a survey.

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Permalink Reply by Bill on October 17, 2010 at 8:28pm

Read The Year of Living Biblically, by A. J. Jacobs for a thorough treatment of what it means to follow the bible.

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Permalink Reply by Michael on October 17, 2010 at 8:37pm

Thanks for for the tip. He's pursing Judaism, but interesting nonetheless.

I will definitely see the movie.

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Permalink Reply by Bill on October 17, 2010 at 9:21pm

He is a secular Jew, but he follows the Christian Bible for this book. He does go into a lot of the traditional Jewish stuff, of course, for the Old Testament part of the book. The Christian part takes place in the second half (I'm not trying to be a smart ass, really! It just came out that way). I'll probably see the movie too. I wasn't aware they were making one. Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on October 17, 2010 at 7:38pm

This is just a difference of philosophy. A lot of Jesus' teachings were essentially Taoist/Buddhist in nature, and they very much tend to follow these concepts (some don't, obviously, but the nature of both religions would prefer they do). Revenge is what it really is. Jesus was more the kind to believe that treating an enemy with kindness gives them no reason to your enemy, instead of fueling the suffering and hatred. What you have is a normal human view of how things should be handled. But it isn't always the best route to go. Nor is turning the other cheek. They should both be used in moderation depending on the circumstance.

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