Jesus said to hate everyone but him?
I wrote about this today in my blog Attempts at Rational Behavior, here is the post:
Luke 14:25-27
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
This Bible passage impresses me for two reasons. One, the literal translation is pretty solid. Hate everyone you know, including yourself, or else you can't be my friend.
Nice.
So the Christian interpretation of this is that the word "hate" has been translated incorrectly from the original Greek. It should mean "love less" therefore you should love no one more than Jesus, as explained here:
[The subject here is the word for hate, which is the Greek miseo. One Skeptic is typical of critics when he writes:
Most Christians feel obligated to soften the face meaning of the word 'hate' to something like 'love less than me,' even though the Greek word miseo means 'hate.'
In line with this comment, Skeptics will stress the meaning of the word "hate" and insist that the word must be read literally, and that Jesus is truly preaching hate. But in fact, the "softening" is correct to do -- and is perfectly in line with the context of the ancient world, and the Jewish culture in particular.]
Many scholars, however, agree the literal translation is accurate. In fact, the word misandry (hatred of men) comes from the Greek miseo (miséο, “to hate”) + andres (anér-andros, “man”). But ok, we'll go with the "love them less" theory.
So we then get to the second reason for why I like this verse. It shows how egotistical Christ can be. Reminds me of an obsessed stalker-like boyfriend. In romantic relationships you can chose to say "fuck off" and even obtain a restraining order from such characters.
In religion we just pray and worship more, because Jesus was God and therefore perfect and more deserving than anything we know of.
Baa Baaaaa
Luke 14:25-27
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
This Bible passage impresses me for two reasons. One, the literal translation is pretty solid. Hate everyone you know, including yourself, or else you can't be my friend.
Nice.
So the Christian interpretation of this is that the word "hate" has been translated incorrectly from the original Greek. It should mean "love less" therefore you should love no one more than Jesus, as explained here:
[The subject here is the word for hate, which is the Greek miseo. One Skeptic is typical of critics when he writes:
Most Christians feel obligated to soften the face meaning of the word 'hate' to something like 'love less than me,' even though the Greek word miseo means 'hate.'
In line with this comment, Skeptics will stress the meaning of the word "hate" and insist that the word must be read literally, and that Jesus is truly preaching hate. But in fact, the "softening" is correct to do -- and is perfectly in line with the context of the ancient world, and the Jewish culture in particular.]
Many scholars, however, agree the literal translation is accurate. In fact, the word misandry (hatred of men) comes from the Greek miseo (miséο, “to hate”) + andres (anér-andros, “man”). But ok, we'll go with the "love them less" theory.
So we then get to the second reason for why I like this verse. It shows how egotistical Christ can be. Reminds me of an obsessed stalker-like boyfriend. In romantic relationships you can chose to say "fuck off" and even obtain a restraining order from such characters.
In religion we just pray and worship more, because Jesus was God and therefore perfect and more deserving than anything we know of.
Baa Baaaaa
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Nelson on -
what difference does whether or not i believe that Jesus ever used hyperbole make? i'm not saying that Jesus never used hyperbole or metaphor. i'm saying that you and those like you pick and choose when to find that he was speaking metaphorically and when he was speaking literally according to your preconceptions of who he was and what he would have said and meant rather than what he is likely to have said and meant according to accepted historical-critical methodology. and you're doing it when it's not at all as clear as you make it out to be. especially to a person without your preconceptions.
but since you ask, i have no doubt that he used hyperbolic language at times. but that doesn't mean that it's valid to judge simply that he was speaking hyperbolically when you want to think that he was and was speaking literally when it's safe for you to think he was. besides, as important as the matter is, because according to Christians it's your salvation that's at stake, whether or not to hate ones family in order to follow Jesus, you would think that hyperbole would, at the very least, be very ill-advised compared to speaking frankly and clearly.
it's best to compare other sources for this and a similar tradition of family division to see if it tells us more about what exactly Jesus is likely to have meant.
Luke 14:26:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 12:51-53:
"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
Matthew 10:34-37
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'"
Gospel of Thomas 55:
Jesus said : "He who does not hate his father and his mother cannot be My disciple. And he who does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross as I do will not be worthy of Me."
there's no way to square Jesus' statements about turning family members against each other, creating division, with the notion that all he meant by "hate" was that a person must simply love him more than his or her own family. presumably your rationalization comes from Matthew 10:37 but that verse doesn't exist in a vacuum. it's best read together with the rest as saying that Jesus understood that his message had and would divide families, that this wasn't an unfortunate unintended consequence of his message but rather it was the only way that a person could be a true disciple of his; in order to ensure your discipleship, because a true disciple could not love his family more than they loved Jesus, you must hate your family. this kind of extreme teaching is, as i explained in my post above, quite common to Jesus' teachings. and this is just what i mean by picking and choosing. perhaps you don't have a problem with taking literally the extreme instructions to sell all your possessions, lend money without asking for repayment, turn the other cheek, give your shirt as well to the person who asks for your cloak. those things, though just as extreme as an instruction to hate your family, you may judge as literal rather than hyperbolic because they fit in with your preconception of who Jesus was. or, perhaps i misrepresent how you find those passages and you find them to be hyperbolic too. in that case apparently you find the bulk of Jesus' teachings in Matthew, Mark, Luke to be hyperbolic because much of it is this extreme. the problem then, to take one example, on the question of the rich being able to get into heaven, if Jesus was indeed speaking hyperbolically, where is the line? since hyperbole isn't clear language for instruction we don't know at all what exactly Jesus meant! can a person be rich and get into heaven? how rich can they be and still get into heaven? are people justified in guessing at how rich they're allowed to be and then hoping for the best? this is the problem with hyperbolic interpretations: they may make you feel better when a literal reading of the text presents a challenge to your preconception of who Jesus was and what he taught but they have very real salvific implications that aren't easily solved.
regardless, surely it goes beyond simply loving one's family less than you love god to reject your own family, wouldn't you say? then you must explain why Jesus, as any good leader does, leads by example when he rejects his own family:
"Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
(Mark 3:31-35 ||Matt 12:46-50; Luke 8:19-21)
finally, even if i except, for arguments sake, your rationalization that all these passages indicate is that Jesus taught merely that his followers had to love him more than they loved their own families, what sort of message is that? what sort of person demands that in order for his followers to truly follow him they must love him more than they do their own family? how disgusting. and how horrible that you would think that such a notion would be a defense against the clear wording of the text, "hate." i unhesitatingly judge that i am the more moral person in comparison with the person who loves Jesus more than their own family; not to mention more moral than the teacher who requires such a thing in order to be their disciple.
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Permalink Reply by Nelson on
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i couldn't sleep last night. lol. i finally went to sleep before finishing it so i finished it this morning and posted it now. :)
and anyway, he'll no doubt try to weasel his way out of things so i figured i'd box him in to begin with rather than cut him off later.
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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on -
Gee, every 15 year old girl I ever knew hated her mom and dad.
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