Jesus died for our sins. But if he is still alive, what was the sacrifice? If He asked God why He was forsaken when He was on the cross and God did nothing is that because He was unable to help? If He could not help, what good is God in a situation like that especially with His own son? If Jesus knew He could be saved but did not ask God to save Him did He commit suicide? Please help me. I am confused.

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sounds about right

"Please help me. I am confused."

Join the Party.

"Jesus died for our sins."

He died because God is angry that his first woman-creation ate a magical fruit that contained knowledge. Bizarre.  

"But if he is still alive, what was the sacrifice?"

The sacrifice was that Jesus was tortured so that he could also feel the pain that we all feel from a fallen world.  Supposedly, Jesus didn't know he was going to be resurrected and chose death.  So technically, Jesus died for our sins but then was reborn later after he gave himself a miracle since Jesus is also God who is also the Holy Spirit.  But how Jesus didn't know he was going to be reborn from himself is...kind of bizarre.

"If He asked God why He was forsaken when He was on the cross and God did nothing is that because He was unable to help?"

God/Jesus needed to let Himself/Jesus/God/Holy Spirit die on the cross so that He/God could sacrifice himself/his son to save humanity from their sins.  So God/Jesus committed suicide without knowing he was committing suicide so God/Jesus temporarily caused a dual-mind-type-magical-thingy in order for himself/God to not know each others actions.  So in summary, God couldn't help himsef/his son because it would have wacked up his/his sons entire masterplan of scapegoating.  Bizarre, huh?

"If He could not help, what good is God in a situation like that especially with His own son?"

This point was answered above.  He let himself die, but didn't let himself die because He couldn't have known he was committing suicide because it would ruin the theology of God sacrificing his own son when God/Jesus are the same thing.

"If Jesus knew He could be saved but did not ask God to save Him did He commit suicide?"

Theology would state Jesus did not commit suicide as he didn't know what would happen.  But of course God DID know that he would resurrect Jesus/himself/his son because God is all knowing.  So like I said, God/Jesus had a dual-mind-magical-thingy that prevented them from reading his own mind/each others minds except for when Jesus claimed to be the one "sent from God" (which really means sent from himself.) 

The BEST part about this is a Christian will claim it all makes perfect sense and if only we would take the leap of faith, we can be filled with the Holy Spirit.  (Filled like Mary was filled I wonder?)

Any other questions?

Thanks for the post, Stephen. I see your confusion in that Jesus, being resurrected, wasn't killed forever, but the sacrifice still remains. He suffered, he bled, and he did in fact die. But what was of more significance was the fact that Jesus, while on the cross, was at that moment forsaken by the Father. It is paradoxical in many ways, as is typical of God, but I would strongly recommend you keep studying it, as it was the most important event in the history of the world, whether you are a believer or not. The point is that God felt the turmoil, pain, suffering, and anxiety that we feel as a result of sin. The Holy, Holy, Holy God, gave up this high position to experience humility at its best, in Christ, taking on the full wrath of God and, yet still trusting his Father.

Why did God do this? Of course He could help if He really is God, but He didn't because A. God must punish sin because He is just
B. God willingly took this punishment for sin because of His grace
C. In taking this punishment, God bought sinners like myself with His blood, to be in fellowship with Him

What good is God in a situation like this? God's desire is to save souls from the second death, and He certainly did so by taking the punishment of the elect upon Himself, so what He did was in fact very good. God works through many temporary situations that we think are bad in order to bring about eternal good.

Did Jesus commit suicide? Yes, he willingly gave up His life. If you want to assign an inherently negative connotation to 'suicide', be my guest, you'll be wrong to do so. Suicide is a neutral term, whether it is a good or a bad thing depends on the purpose for doing so.

Hope this helped!

"But what was of more significance was the fact that Jesus, while on the cross, was at that moment forsaken by the Father."

Wow!  Being a Christian, you HAVE TO KNOW BETTER than this!

Explain to me how the "Father" both:

1.)  Forsake Jesus

2.)  Is all knowing and knew his plan to resurrect Jesus 

*********************

Put them together, Jerod.  I implore you to think just a little past what you've been taught.

How can an all knowing God forsake Jesus when his plan was to let him die and then resurrect him later?

...as it was the most important event in the history of the world, whether you are a believer or not.

No, it's pretty much only if you are a believer in this day and age. It certainly has its significance to Christian mythology and theology, but it's philosophical value to anyone not of the faith often isn't that special.

The whole of Christian history certainly was significant to most of the world, but I have a suspicion that much of that history would have gone down in a similar manner even without the crucifixion myth. Even the creation Gutenberg Bible alone is likely a more significant point in history to non-believers than the tale of Christ's execution and resurrection contained therein.

Well, maybe Gutenberg was more significant to those of us in the west. Apparently Asia had the lead on the moveable type front.

Thanks for the post, Stephen. I see your confusion in that Jesus, being resurrected, wasn't killed forever, but the sacrifice still remains. He suffered, he bled, and he did in fact die.

On the subject of Stephen's "confusion":

Stephen, being an atheist, is likely entertaining purely for the sake of discussion the unsupported platitude that Jesus came back to life three days after his execution (assuming Jesus actually existed at all).

This yielding of ground on Stephen's part is a form of handicapping: assigning an advantage to a weaker or less skilled contestant to equalize the chances of winning.

It's worth noting that Stephen's "confusion" is both artificial and generous, unless he actually believes in the resurrection of Jesus as "fact", which I rather doubt.

Jesus, while on the cross, was at that moment forsaken by the Father, [which] was the most important event in the history of the world, whether you are a believer or not.

Your condescension to unbelievers is rather unbecoming considering you've been excused from treading water in the deep end of evidence and reason, and relegated to the kiddie pool of mere assumption.

The point is that God felt the turmoil, pain, suffering, and anxiety that we feel as a result of sin.

God created sin, then felt the turmoil, pain, suffering and anxiety that his victims feel as a result of it. 

Got it.

The Holy, Holy, Holy God, gave up this high position to experience humility at its best, in Christ, taking on the full wrath of God and, yet still trusting his Father.

Right. Because...

...no omniscient God understands humility.

...God's "full wrath" apparently consists of one day of torture and execution for a single man (not an eternity of agony in hell for millions of people).

...and my, what a gutsy move for an omniscient, omnipotent God to trust himself.

Why did God do this? Of course He could help if He really is God, but He didn't because

A. God must punish sin because He is just

Punishing one person for the crimes of another is not just.

B. God willingly took this punishment for sin because of His grace

Creating sinful people and punishing them for it is sadistic, not forgiving.

C. In taking this punishment, God bought sinners like myself with His blood, to be in fellowship with Him

If God bought you, you're his slave, not his friendly association. In this you had no say.

What good is God in a situation like this?

None. He's a sadistic moral monster.

I'm delighted that God (especially the vicious one you describe) exists only in the imagination.

God's desire is to save souls from the second death, and He certainly did so by taking the punishment of the elect upon Himself, so what He did was in fact very good. God works through many temporary situations that we think are bad in order to bring about eternal good.

Right. God is trying to bring about eternal good using a bloodthirsty, convoluted system of obedience, sin, forgiveness, suffering, misery and death, which he created and we must believe in on bad evidence.

I guess the people God is torturing in hell for eternity are part of this eternal good, huh?

This as opposed to not creating sin in the first place, or simply putting right all the wrongdoing and suffering in the world he created. You know, since God knows how everyone and everything he created is going to turn out anyway?

Did Jesus commit suicide? Yes, he willingly gave up His life. If you want to assign an inherently negative connotation to 'suicide', be my guest, you'll be wrong to do so. Suicide is a neutral term, whether it is a good or a bad thing depends on the purpose for doing so.

Killing someone for the wrongdoing of others strikes me as a decidedly bad thing. God killing another incarnation of himself, knowing he would survive the process (having been the author of it) is not at all impressive.

Hope this helped!

It always does, Jarod, as reinforcement of why I'll never be a Christian. I don't see any good reason or evidence to think that God exists, but I accept that an impersonal deistic God is possible, if unlikely, though I cannot know for certain. This is agnostic atheism (and the reason why I am a Humanist).

But the Christian version of God, every time I hear it, is without overstatement the stupidest, most nonsensical and immoral claim that I've ever heard, even granting the claimant the immense handicap that the execution and resurrection of Jesus actually occurred at all.

"...God's "full wrath" apparently consists of one day of torture and execution for a single man (not an eternity of agony in hell for millions of people)."

Gallup, it's important to remember that Jesus's "torture" really only lasted about 6 hours.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081002114209AAMLuvK

Which is almost laughable on it's face.  We are to expect the creator of the universe is trying to prove that he wants to feel the suffering of billions  of his creation by...hanging himself/his son on a cross for....6 hours?  

It's just a point I try to make to Christians that their savior Jesus, really didn't even have it "all that bad."  6 hours on a cross is a walk in the park on a cool summer breeze compared to how some of his creation has suffered and died through certain diseases or punishments, like being medical test subjects for nazi's, etc.  

He suffered, he bled, and he did in fact die.

He was resurrected into a all powerful superman who lives forever, therefore no, he did not in fact die. Death = no more life, not eternal life.

But what was of more significance was the fact that Jesus, while on the cross, was at that moment forsaken by the Father. 

Let me see if I get this right... The guy who is also his father was forsaken by his father, who is also him, by being left to die, but not really die, for a crime he invented to punish people who didn't know that crime existed, because it didn't. And he knew all along that he was going to do all of these things... So tell me, Jerod, how do you define being forsaken? Or does this all sound like putting on a show for the sake of making people kneel at your feet.

 It is paradoxical in many ways, as is typical of God

This I agree with. I am still trying to find an answer to whether or not god can microwave a burrito so hot that he couldn't eat it.

but I would strongly recommend you keep studying it

Me too! No better way to become atheist.

it was the most important event in the history of the world, whether you are a believer or not.

Ummm, no. How can an event that, as evidence points has never happened be important to people who don't think it ever happened? That is the same as saying that the day that Odin killed Ymir is the most important event in human history because it ended the tyranny of the Ice Giants, whether or not you believe in that. See how stupid that sounds?

The point is that God felt the turmoil, pain, suffering, and anxiety that we feel as a result of sin.

The point is that god knew all along all of this because he is all knowing, right? So there was no need for him to pretend to "feel it" by going through the motions.

Also, he created sin. He alone is the reason "we" feel all of those things, because he knew from the very beginning that all of this was going to happen. So, he knew that we would commit a crime that does not exist, he allowed us to do so, just so that he can then create this crime, and punish us after the fact. Then he knew all along that he was going to ghost-rape an under-aged girl and impregnate her with his son, who is also him, and then torture and kill his son/himself in order to make himself feel what he already knows, in order to forgive us for a crime that he invented just to punish us.

The Holy, Holy, Holy God, gave up this high position to experience humility at its best, in Christ, taking on the full wrath of God and, yet still trusting his Father.

The holy x3 god didn't give up dick, buddy! He knows all... Therefore he knew that he would have to just deal with it for a few years and then BLAMO! Back to being immortal and awesome. And he still was immortal and awesome because he was also god still. So, to be true to the story, he only half experienced humanity, because he still had superpowers, and he was still his alter ego, Yahweh, the daddy.

Why did God do this? Of course He could help if He really is God, but He didn't because
A. God must punish sin because He is just

Then he would punish himself and no human would have had to suffer at all. Sin came about through his divine incompetence. He, in his all knowing wisdom somehow forgot about the satan, and forgot to explain to Adam and Eve, who conveniently never existed, why they shouldn't eat the fruit.

Also, if the fruit was off limits, why not put it somewhere out of reach? Do you tell your baby not to drink bleach, or do you lock the bleach in a cupboard out of reach of the baby who doesn't know any better? Holy fuck, god is a terrible parent! Where was Divine Child Service during all this?

B. God willingly took this punishment for sin because of His grace

Awww, so nice of him to pretend like he gets it and then pop right back to being all powerful and accomplishing nothing in the process.

C. In taking this punishment, God bought sinners like myself with His blood, to be in fellowship with Him

And Christians claim that their religion doesn't support human sacrifice. And that phrasing... "God bought sinners like myself with his blood" sounds an awful lot like slavery.

I'd like to add a few more reasons to your list:

D. God is incompetent.

E. God is malevolent.

F. God doesn't exist.

What good is God in a situation like this?

The same good he is in any situation. None at all!

God's desire is to save souls from the second death, and He certainly did so by taking the punishment of the elect upon Himself, so what He did was in fact very good.

Wouldn't a much better solution have been to not have sin happen in the first place? After all, he did know about what was going to happen. And he did not take the punishment. Because our punishment is eternal torture, his was a few hours at best. If he was to truly take the punishment, he would step down from his position, and submit himself, as a human, to eternal torture in hell. That would be fair and good. 

God works through many temporary situations that we think are bad in order to bring about eternal good.

And it is so curious that the situations where "god works" line up perfectly with just pure chance.

Did Jesus commit suicide? Yes, he willingly gave up His life.

Correction, he committed murder/suicide. He killed his son, who is himself. So, he committed both murder and suicide, and isn't one of the 10 commandments, "Thou shalt not kill?"

But I guess he did respawn after the lag went away, so he technically did not commit either. So, correction, god faked a murder/suicide. There, that clears things up.

If you want to assign an inherently negative connotation to 'suicide', be my guest, you'll be wrong to do so. Suicide is a neutral term, whether it is a good or a bad thing depends on the purpose for doing so.

Is that why suicide cases go to purgatory?

Hope this helped!

Oh, it sure did!

Let me see if I get this right... The guy who is also his father was forsaken by his father, who is also him, by being left to die, but not really die, for a crime he invented to punish people who didn't know that crime existed, because it didn't. And he knew all along that he was going to do all of these things.

-Pretty goddam funny, Emperor.

 

"Also, if the fruit was off limits, why not put it somewhere out of reach? Do you tell your baby not to drink bleach, or do you lock the bleach in a cupboard out of reach of the baby who doesn't know any better? Holy fuck, god is a terrible parent! Where was Divine Child Service during all this?"

Very good argument.  Never heard this one before and can't believe I never thought of it myself.  

All of your confusion can be resolved by one, just one, decision.  There is no god.  All of what you are confused about simply does not exist.

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