This idea can have logic and great value even for an atheist.  

Not that long ago I offered for some angry people to kick my head in, to prove a point about how men should treat women (i.e. don't bully them).  (I guess they didn't have the heart to do it.)  

Among the many interpretations which can be placed on the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus, we can say this:  

Jesus went to his death willingly - in that he knew it was going to happen, and didn't run away, when he could have done - in order to prove and illustrate a point.  That point was his life's work (well, the last 3 years').  One of his main lessons was that we can all be given the chance for our sins to be forgiven, provided we earn it and do the necessary real work involved.  Provided we go to our Crucifixion willingly.  If he can get himself crucified, we should be up to saying sorry and putting things right when we have to.  We should be humble enough to suffer for what we have done.  We should be humble enough to let something go instead of escalating to some kind of blood feud.  

He also forgave the people who were crucifying him. 

By dramatically illustrating the idea that God can forgive our sins, will always give us a second chance to make good: life became possible, life became good, life became fruitful.  Instead of nasty, brutish and short.  Hence the Resurrection. 

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Actually there is so much nuttyness that I feel a little disoriented thinking about details. If we could just get some of our neighbors to lossen up, this could be a fine little planet.

"Send in the clowns!"

Don't bother, we're here --

Yeah, but at least the soldier wouldn't go around telling everyone to worship him because he took the grenade.  I'm sure that s/he wouldn't be that conceited.

"then we can have the humility and courage to admit we are wrong and to seek forgiveness"

This is the guilt trip I don't buy. As humans interact with other humans we certainly make mistakes and due stupid immoral unethical acts. Is this imperfection in need of humility and forgiveness? Possibly, but only to the individual I wronged. The concept of sin is necessary for those who choose to be shackled with the guilt of falling short of being a perfect human socially. I reject that notion. 

Right. Let's get over the bungled logic that a creator would make me without faith but with skepticism, fail to provide sufficient proof of his existence, sentence me to torture for all eternity because I had no faith, but then give me a 'proceed to heaven, limitations apply' stay of execution because some Jewish dude I've never met got tortured, then came back from the dead 2k years ago. Except I don't get to go, because my brain has formed a conclusion, and until it's presented with evidence, that conclusion just won't shake free. 

Let's just set that aside for a moment. Because I have a feeling that's what most people on the site take issue with, so you'll probably address it later in the discussion. 

I'm going to go with you and just focus on the 'symbolism' here for a minute. 

Willingly going to your death takes courage and humility? No. I know a bunch of perfect assholes that would still give their lives in the line of duty. Most cops and rescue workers I know specifically lack humility. Soldiers aren't that much different. I know. I was one. So I'm failing to see a connection there. If anything, no one wants to be the survivor that let their friends die. I'd say it takes FEAR of something worse than death, not courage. 

I'm not even sure you have to be humble to seek forgiveness. You just have to realize you're wrong and not be a horrible human being. When you fuck up, the most efficient way to neutralize the drama is to apologize and make it better. At the end of the day, apologizing is always for your benefit as much as for the person you've slighted. Apologizing because you don't want to see someone upset is still because YOU don't want to see them upset. Apologizing to move forward with the situation and resolve it as soon as possible can also be seen as an insecurity. You're trying to get over the incident as quickly as possible because you're embarrassed by it. Apologizing makes it all go away so everyone can move on. There are a ton of reasons people apologize. Not a lot of them point to courage and humility. 

So forgiveness is symbolized by Christ becoming the second known zombie? 

I'm just confused at this point. 

Forgiveness can keep life going? 

No. Food, water, shelter and medical care can keep life going. Donating blood, driving safely, watching your cholesterol is what keeps life going. 

I can't help but wonder what the hell kind of lives some people must lead to have all this drama and whipping boy and blood sacrifice actually apply to their daily existence. 

Let's put it this way. 

I'm offended at the concept that I can't answer for my own sins, my own guilts and my own misjudgments. 

Hell, the biggest sin I'm apparently guilty of, I didn't even commit. Some Middle Eastern lady I've never met ate a fruit in early history. WTF does that have to do with me? 

Blood sacrifices are a barbaric, early-human concept.. 

No one is accountable for my actions but me. I'm not held guilty for the actions of anyone else,either. We all make our own decisions. We all face our own consequences for those choices. That's what free-will actually is. There is no second chance. There is no after life. If you fuck up, you make it right this time around, or you don't make it right at all. I'm accountable to the person I've  harmed. Not an invisible entity. 

But seriously. I'm a little weirded out by how quickly people apply blood sacrifices and such to their daily lives. Really, mate. What have you done that's so bad, it requires suicidal-level "courage and humility " to admit you are wrong and seek forgiveness. 

Like.. what could be that bad?!?! 

...I bet it involves taxes. :)

^ This.

Clap clap clap.... repeat

Waiting for the punch line....

Aww yeah. 

That rant scored me a Riker.


@Misty - thank you for these intelligent and thought-provoking points.  I'll answer you when I have more time (i.e. have sobered up from meeting Strega tomorrow). 

Say hi to Strega for us!

I will do.  We'll be in The Skinners Arms, 5 mins from Kings Cross Station from mid-day, if you or anyone else fancies coming along. 

114 Judd St, London, Greater London WC1H 9NT

I would love to, but sadly I am in the wrong London.


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