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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 27, 2011 at 1:31am

I have no problem with reading bro! Thank you for taking the time...I think she is worth the work. I'm not sure if she would be willing to go to a science discussion about evolution, etc, but it IS a strong possibility. I feel that is equivalent to me sitting through, and participating in her Bible studies, or at the Kingdom Hall every once in a while. I don't see why she would not be open minded and willing to compromise. Another question Garret...if you can recall; what were some of the things your wife pointed out that were flawed with the JW's? I'm sure i have pointed some of it out to my girl, but most of what i have experienced with her reaction was that its not spoken about again or no rebuttal is offered. Maybe i am missing some important things that should be pointed out...

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Permalink Reply by Garrett Taffer on August 27, 2011 at 2:24am

The origins of the JW's. Many do not know that Charles Russel and Joseph Rutherford were conflicted and disagreed as to where the religion should go. Conflicted? Disagreements? Why? Isn't this coming from God? Later, Russel was buried with a tombstone erected a great pyramid, which conflicted the Watchtower Society teachings of worship, even though they apparently erected it.

Throughout the years, several reorganizations have taken place, some which change the direction and teachings of the Witnesses. 

Although the JW's have carried the 'end of times' message for a long time, in the 1974 they stated in the Kingdom Ministry: “How Are You Using Your Life” “Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.”

So they encouraged people to sell homes. They have also encouraged not to study so much in school. It's not too different than the Harold Camping end of times disaster that occurred this year. Just look up JW's and End Of Times predictions in Google, get a good source, print it, and show it to her.

But it was much more then that. Conflicting questions about how the real difference of religion is generated based on your parents and where you were born was a strong basis for our discussions. How the bible conflicted with its own texts with different versions in Genesis and separate stories about Jesus, and how some science was very flawed (such as Noah's Ark) was also talked about, as were talks about how free will works. The sacrifice of Jesus. How could it be the ultimate sacrifice if Jesus knew he was going to resurrected like a character in a video game? 

That last one is a touchy one. Don't bring that up until later.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 27, 2011 at 2:32am

WOW...Thank you...I have brought up most of this already...I haven't pulled out the list of failed armegeddon predictions yet, but i have been planning on it. I try to be very careful so as to not offend or disrespect. The real difference of religion, was an issue she could not deny. YES. i won't bring that last one about the ultimate sacrifice, up until much later, although it is a GREAT POINT.

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Permalink Reply by Meghan McWilliams on August 26, 2011 at 1:52pm

I hope you find the answers you are looking for. Good luck.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 26, 2011 at 4:41pm

Thank you Meghan!! James reply i think is EXCELLENT...

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Permalink Reply by Sharyn Lesher on August 26, 2011 at 4:35pm

perhaps you could point out that her odds aren't very good, as only 144,000 JHW will be taken into heaven to reign with Jesus, she runs a slim chance of making the cut above the multitudes of others that have been in the church much longer.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 26, 2011 at 4:43pm

Sharyn...Yes i have told her this one already, and you won't believe THIS one...LOL! They believe that after the armegeddon, the 144,000 will go to heaven with Jesus, BUT the leftover obedient JW's will enjoy eternal life on a "heavenly earth"!!! LOLOL!!! what a crock of shit right?!?!?

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Permalink Reply by Garrett Taffer on August 27, 2011 at 12:57am

Yes, JW's believe that humans were supposed to be Earth care-takers. The 144,000 would go to heaven and do things there, but as far as those resurrected, they actually believe that it will go far beyond just JW's. I do remember a talk as to how even those that don't believe in God but led a wholesome life would make it to everlasting life, depending on, I don't know, God's mood that day? The rating score at the end of their life? How many people they DIDN"T kill?

 

Yes, fellow atheist and aggy's... even you can have everlasting life, as long as you aren't too naughty.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 27, 2011 at 1:00am

LMAO!!! then we are in the greatest position!! LOL!

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 26, 2011 at 5:03pm

EXCELLENT as well....never thought of approaching it from this angle. So i should probably hold off on totally bodyslamming her with those questions James brought up, LOL! I think you are on POINT when you say she is emotionally attached to JWs, Adrienne. Which i think, in turn, gives her a false sense of logic with the religion. Because she claims she doesnt understand how i say it is illogical. THANK YOU for your response Adrienne...

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Permalink Reply by Dale Headley on August 26, 2011 at 5:34pm

   It should only be a problem if one of you is determined to convert the other.  There are MANY happily married couples where one is an atheist and the other a Christian; they just agree not to intrude into each other's belief domain.  Now then, if you want to have children with this lady, that is another matter altogether.  If you can't agree in advance about how the children are to be educated, it's better to get out while you can.  My experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses have always been good.  I am a VERY committed atheist, but I've found every discussion I've had with these people to be pleasant and respectful.  And they've always walked away disappointed, frustrated perhaps, but with something to think about.  That's about all I should expect.

If you are determined to be with this girl and to change her thinking, you should regard it a long term process.  I've found often that years of exposure to my scientific expertise and advocacy managed to cause my friend, mother, or wife start to question her belief system.  But the point is that I never INTENDED to do so; it just slowly penetrated through intellectual osmosis without our ever having any kind of confrontation.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cross on August 26, 2011 at 5:59pm

I have also played this scenario out in my head as well...I agree that if we don't intrude, and try to impose our beliefs on one another then it surely is not a problem. The dialogue that we DO have about one another's beliefs, never get anywhere near out of hand, just some frustration that rears its head at times from her. I do have to say it IS always a pleasant, and respectful discussion.
And it isn't so much that i want to change her thinking; because thats what i feel she would ultimately like to do to me, "convert"...I just want to open her eyes to the other side of the coin, instead of buying into all the biased writings and teachings of the watchtower society. She HAS asked me a couple of times to go to the Kingdom Hall with her, and i have said no everytime, because i was busy. BUT; I wouldnt have a problem going with her a couple times a year, as ANNOYING as it would be, to support HER. It will DEFINITELY be a long term process to open her eyes to reality. Yo, Dale i would definitely like to pick your brain on your scientific expertise as well...thank you for your post... 

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