Davis, war is hell, but one side is conducting war and the other is conducting terrorism. Sure, when you shoot to kill your attackers and they are hiding behind schoolchildren, WTF do you think happens? Israel actually tells Palestinian citizens to get out of the way of a coming attack, but guess who won't let them get out of the way, eh? Why? Because they want some innocent deaths for you and yours to lament about to conjure up sympathy for Hamas.
I have no doubt that the Palestinian on the street would love for peace to break out. However, unlike Israel, Hamas is part of the International jihad against anything that isn't currently Sharia-oppressed.
I don't love everthing Israel does, but we face two basic worlds we can hand our children and grandchildren: one with eventual peace and freedom (especially for women) as its goal and one where those who would love peace and freedom anx respect for women are subject to warriors on perpetual jihad to stamp out any peace or freedom that rears its beautiful head. Israel may be about the worst example of a good lot. Hamas is a standard cookie-cutter example of a very bad lot that absolutely must lose. However, they use innocents as shields and when those innocents die, they convert them into PR liberals use to make it sound like Israel is just as bad (moral equivalence). You don't see yourself in there anywhere?
Davis, after writing a detailed response to every one of your accusations i see you're ramping on, not letting facts cloud your judgment. This whole part of killing kids, not making efforts towards peace... if you hold different "facts" to the clear ignorence you demonstrated so far, i can gladly help...
If peace broke out, Israel would welcome it and settle down to daily life, but for Hamas and the other Islamic nut jobs, Israel is just the first in a long line of dominoes they want to knock over.
Imagine what would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms and bombs, and vowed never to fight again--then followed through on it.
Then imagine what would happen if Israel did the same.
That little exercise should clarify things for all who aren't willfully obtuse.
Imagine if one day both sides get together in peace and piss off American Jews and militant muslims in Saudi Arabia and those two get together in a one time joint operation to show the world that Israel/Palestine belongs to either muslims or jews and not both...and if only one can't have it...NO ONE SHALL!!!!! Iin a covert joint operation they get together bomb Israel and Palestine taking out most of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt with it. And don't pretend they won't. I know a thing or two about the Middle East and international relations and I can say with confidence that I know what American Jews and Militant Saudis are capable of!!!
Don't you see...the possible consequences of trying out peace are devastating. It's best to eternally occupy the territory of your enemy, let them live in misery, respond to their violence at a rate ten times as brutal with ten times the death toll, give them less rights, let those of the enemy who are citizens in your country be considered by law...lesser citizens allowing only people of one single religion...and then claim that you are actually the moral modern liberal society with humanist values passing modern rights with flying colours. I can't think of any other solution.
why do hate facts so much? why do you keep reiterating lies about dicrimination of arab israelies? what's your agenda?
My Jewish friends often express their desire for peace in the Middle-East and don't express any hatred for Palestinians. In fact many Jews I know express a kinship with all peoples from that area. I believe Hamas reaps the kind of karma it sows.
Now as for the Saudi's, yeah I agree with you there. They are THE main oily problem.
Great comment Davis
I would personally rate the killers as sub-human, and "neutralize" them before they killed someone innocent. But the problem is, how does one know ahead of time which people will act non-human?
After 9/11, I saw all kinds of Americans waving flags, screaming "never forget", and polititians rising up saying "we have to DO something!". So we invaded Iraq, killed upwards of 100k Iraqis, plus more American military than Americans who died in 9/11. Did we defeat terrorism, or perhaps accidentally help it grow?
Our biggest blunders have been fear based, and arrogantly justified by national pride even as we sunk to behaviors previously considered inhumane in our great country.
Isn't it true that Israel's kill several more times in number Palestinians than they kill Israelies? I'm not saying that anger is unjustified, but asking "what good has overkill done in the long run for Israel"?
In 100 years of conflict, Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed israelies. That is true. Americans, by the way, killed way more germans in WWII than the other way around. Simply counting bodies teaches you nothing about conflict, and Israel seems to be the only place in the world today coming under such scrutiny. Does US forces killing more ISIS terrorist than vice versa teach us anything about the conflict? You would never hear such comparison because it is absurd.
If you want to view the conflict through the "dead counting" prism, consider this. Israel is one of the most powerful military forces in the world. There is no physical or operational obstacle stopping it from ethnically cleansing the Palestinian territories. Many other conflicts around the world, that would otherwise have lasted 100 years, didn't- for this very reason - The strong side murdering the weak to insignificance. Israel and the Palestinian territories are ultimately smaller than the state of new jersey. A maniacal leader, Putin for example, could get the job done in a week.
But we don’t. not because we can't – but because we don't want to.
Palestinains, on the other hand- do not have the ability to leash actual genocide on the Israeli people – but they never cease from trying. Not for one instance. "kill the jews" is never off the agenda – be it through suicide bombings, rocket attacks, knife attacks, and maybe most importantly a consistent refusal to sign any sort of compromise in the dozen or so peace deals offered to them and brokered by the US in the past 20 years. Palestine could be celebrating their 17th year of independence had they agreed to the proposal given to them by Israeli PM in Camp David in 2000. There are have been more offers since, plus unilateral withdrawals – all perceived on the Palestinian side not as acts of good faith, but rather as weaknesses- a reason to push on for increased violence.
How do you deal with such people? With such leadership? Such a culture? I don't have an answer. I will however say than in contrast to US "nation building" wars, naively stemming from a belief that you can invade a foreign culture, force democracy and free speech on them, and say "problem solved", our wars our very different. We have no real hope on "changing" the barbarians around us. We usually sit around doing nothing while waves of terror increase. At some point we snap and hit back, for the sole purpose of "buying ourselves" several years of quiet. When faced with maniacal leaders who are uninterested in persuasion, deterrence is the only tool left.
Even then, I might add, our military makes steps to limit civilian casualties which no other army in the world does. World media loves propping up breaking headlines of dead Palestinians, but actually this is one of the least bloodiest conflicts in history. The attention it gets is nowhere near proportional to the body count- in comparison to actual genocides happening all over the world, getting ZERO coverage.
In 100 years of conflict, Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed israelies.
100 years, 10, 2, whatever... choose any period you like.
In my roundup of 8 things you need to know about the Gaza-Israel conflict, I forgot to include one important point: the Palestinian death toll.
The number of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths is clearly disproportionate — as of this writing, about 192:1. There are a few different ways to look at this rate.
[from article 'justifying' 192:1; yeah, 'he forgot to mention']
i'm sorry not enough israelies died to quiet your consience.
I honestly don't get this argument, this demand for equality of outcome. it makes sense ONLY if you think israel is massacaring Palestinains on purpose. If that was the goal, why has this conflict streched out for so long? why not just killem' all? why not behave like any given week of the syrian civil war and indiscriminatly bomb to ashes every palestinain city, forcing millions of refugees to flee to europe.. ethnically clense the place and get it over with... why stretch this out 70 damm years? If what happened in gaza was indeed "genocide" as so many antisemites and their "useful idiot" liberal buddies like to cry out (as they would do for no other people in thw world), one has to atleast admit that it was the least effective genocide in history. What kind of genocide starts with phone calls to every home in the target area to leave, followed by airdropped leaflets explaing the safe routes to escape from, followed by a dummy missle dropped on the rooftop, causing no damadge besides a loud sound, notifiying remaining residents they have 5 minutes to leave. feel free to fact check everything i've written, just please stop with this nonsense. sometimes there are no "good" solutions. sometimes reality sucks because yo're dealing with religious fanatics who can't wait to get to the afterlife and cannot be reasoned with. it's even tougher when they run the state...
i'm sorry not enough israelies died to quiet your consience.
Now wait, is that something only conservatives would say? Of course not, but personalizing this debate gets us nowhere.
My apologies for reacting negatively to comments like this, or any similar comments I make seemingly without being provoked. I try not to do that, except when people believe that evil justifies evil and will always solve problems.
What kind of genocide starts with phone calls to every home in the target area to leave, followed by airdropped leaflets explaing the safe routes to escape from, followed by a dummy missle dropped on the rooftop, causing no damadge besides a loud sound, notifiying remaining residents they have 5 minutes to leave.
I'm not sure how to fact check that with a reliable third party, but it does sound commendable... especially if it's a very well-known practice.