Is your trust in science based on faith or based on science?

What I mean is this: how much do you actually know about the science most atheists parrot? Most atheists know as little science as most Christians know as little theology. Just as a Christian trusts his priest to tell him what he believes, an atheist trusts scientists with a Ph.D. tacked to their name to tell them what they believe. But how many times have the scientists turned out to be wrong? I only ask this because it seems this is central to the problem that most atheists have. They are repulsed by the phrase “believe” – they are addicted instead to the phrase “know”. But honestly, do you really know, or are you just believing what you’re told? I would like to remind you that in the 1970′s the scientists of the day were seriously concerned that we were about to enter an ice age, and less than 30 years later they are now convinced Earth is about to turn into a desert.

Unless you’ve observed something yourself, or observed and interpreted the evidence yourself and drew your own conclusions, you are just as guilty as faith as any religious person.

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Ten years old, you say, Boyo?! Well you just won two shillelaghs up from me, and a pint too, if we ever meet --

Thanks man - as long as the 2 shillelaghs are not nailed together into a cross.......I might be in the Atlanta area later this summer.......on A holiday to visit family. My brother is a US citizen.

Please convey to your brother my deepest sympathies --


Ha-ha yes Thank god he is an atheist too. He is living on the edge of the Bible belt. The first time I went to visit I was admiring an old Cadillac from the 60’s parked by the kerb (ok sidewalk) which was in pristine condition. The owner and I got to talking about cars (I am a “petrol head” not sure of the equivalent term). After a few minutes he asked me if “I was saved”. I asked him from what? He started to explain something about this guy from the Middle East who apparently died for me so I could become an immortal or something like that. I started to slowly back away which freaked him out.  Goddamit I am trying to tell you about Jesus, he said. Did he make Cadillac’s? I asked as I continued to back away from him. I started to run as if he was a mugger or something and went into a coffee shop. Of course the people in there started to give me weird looks as I had a dirty grin on my face. I could see the look of confusion on his face as I sipped the coffee….Later my brother warned me to be careful as there are apparently thousands of them on the loose. :-) Only in the country 2 hours and already causing trouble!!

FYI - "kerb" = "curb" on this side of the pond - phonetically, they would be pronounced the same.

If only I could kerb my enthusaim for words!!

"Well no, not for years. I shave myself every other day or so."

LOL.  Yes, we do have a lot of them on the loose, though it's more a regional thing, and one conspicuously absent from northern and coastal university towns, thank goodness.  Well, we do occasionally get the itinerant preacher on campus in good weather. Blech.

If I'm feeling feisty I sometimes ask them how they think they can be saved if they're separated from the One True Holy Catholic Church which wrote the bible they use.  It usually starts them foaming at the mouth.  In areas of the American south we're only one step above black folks, about tied with Jews.  And atheists!

@Reg - I also luv the word Apologist - shouldn't christians be saying, 'I am so sorry for all the deaths and destruction, torture and war we have caused - I am so sorry for expelling family members who don't believe in god, I am so sorry for all the heartache and misery I have caused".

@Bob -

The thing that fascinates me the most - after research - is that all christian religions, because they all come from, albeit with different interpretations, of course,which is why there are so many different cults, from the same source, the bible, which in itself has had thousands of different interpretations. It is even, today, argued where it came from within religious circles, did it come from the hebrew originally, or greek or what? What pagan rights shall we steal and adapt etc. etc. Too many to name here.

Catechism - yet another version of what children should learn - a condensed, brainwashing, sanitized version, same as Watchtower. Both books written by old men.

From this source of myth, stories and magic, interpretation, translation, comes, also your religion, all based on Chinese whispers. Don't like that word, for example, and I could site thousands of the changes, so changed 'young woman' to' virgin'. The repercussions for that are unimaginable -

Dear Mary

Just admit you slept with someone else. This is getting out of hand.

Sincerely Joseph

Then you have the next stupidity to raise it's head. Men who love the power and the money that can be had, if you pay Indulgences, you, too, will go to heaven.

From peasants who could not afford food, would pay Indulges, and that is still happening today, in third world countries, where uneducated peasants are told ' If you pay money to the church, you too will go to heaven. They do pay, can't afford to feed their many children, but they will go to heaven. Criminal. This is the church you support.

I am an ex-catholic, I have gone through the system, there was a pedophile brother at my young brothers catholic school, St. Patrick's, the boys were told to stay away from, wait for it, Brother Innocent, 'cause he was strange. He was always protected, he had raped a number of boys, he was never handed over to the police. He died at the age of 82 in Rome.

Even though you know of the criminal, evil, horrendous acts of the Legions of Christ, started by a pedophile, Marcial Degollado, raping boys for forty years, priests fathering children, yahhh, still support them. As I said, shut them down, move the good guys, but no, too much money involved.

Then the founder of Opus Dai, a nazi sympathizer, Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, who is now a saint by the way, well, of course he is :)

Escriva wrote a letter to Franco, saying how wonderful it was, on the union of church and state. Why wouldn't he when the Vatican City State was decreed by the fabulous Benito Mussolini.

And you too, can send cheques to Fundacion Studium - C Castello, 115 2
28006 - Madrid, Espana to support Opus Dei.

“Like an open wound, that’s how you are. Everything makes you suffer, in your faculties and in your senses. And everything is a temptation to you. Poor child! Be humble -

Bugger off, that is what I say. Why teach this to children.

This is the thinking of the catholic church, that is why the raping of children was ignored and covered up - and a few sessions at Confession, of course. All gone, problem gone away.

"Christ did not will sinners to be excluded from the society he had founded; if therefore some members are spiritually infirm, this is no reason for lessening our love toward the Church, but rather for increasing our compassion toward her members."

And so it goes with the vatican and the vatcan bank, so it goes with Ratszinger, and if he steps outside the vatican conclave, he will be arrested.

The newst pope is said to be going to open the files on the relationship with Pope Pius XII and Hitler, should be an interesting read, if it ever gets onto the public arena. Maybe he will do the same with the vatican bank, sitting on its trillions of tax free money.

By the by, I don't know of any secular education system that has thousands of raped boys in their midst, who are told by a priest or brother, to come into my room, and if you say a word to anybody, I will fail you.

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Again, thousands of children. Priests and brothers protected by your church, whose parents in their millions, sent their children off into these church environs, thinking, mistakenly that they would be safe.

The next bit is another interesting read - if you have the intestinal fortitude is -

Now that the authorities are getting access through the courts to investigate all the fraud going at the Vatican, helped by money given to them by the Nazis.

The point on just these couple of examples of dishonesty and treachery, is that all your beliefs are founded on uneducated men, with a power complex, and as humans do, revert to the animals instincts that control all humans, they wanted power at any cost, money at any cost, and not caring who they hurt. You just keep on supporting these criminals - I actually think, the reason you have come on to an Atheist site, is that you know, in your heart, that your belief system is actually a fraud.

The thing that fascinates me the most - after research - is that all christian religions, because they all come from, albeit with different interpretations, of course,which is why there are so many different cults, from the same source, the bible, which in itself has had thousands of different interpretations.

Nope.  The Protestant religions, to some extent, make a claim to be sola scriptura, but even that isn't really accurate.  Christians wrote and compiled the Bible, we didn't come from the Bible.

I understand that you are a former Catholic, and it grieves me that your parents or school were not as good as teachers as they might have been.  That there was a cleric at your brothers' school who molested boys fills me with furious anger and great sadness.   The man should be condemned, and any who enabled his behavior along with him.  I can understand the hatred, and the bitterness.  In one of my schools, it was the women's basketball coach, a married layman.  If you wanted to start, you did him "favors."  Say a word to anybody, and you are off the team and ostracized for being a slut. He was allowed to resign and go to another school.

If you don't think that secular institutions and individuals molest and rape children then you're just being naive.  The biological attraction isn't attached to a religion gene.  Nor is the desire to cover up wrongdoing.

While I can join you in bitter contempt for those who have done harm, what  I can't do is condemn all basketball coaches, or all those who play basketball.  Nor can I condemn the beliefs of 1.2 billion people,  because some acted badly.  I can't buy into conspiracy theories about a million good people because a thousand were perverted assholes.  That sort of "logic" leads to the worst pogroms.

I think you know that, too.

So I'll join you in the condemnation of the Fr. Geoghans and Br. Innocents and Cardinal Bernard Laws of this world.  Will you join me in celebrating Sister Theresemarie, who taught me computer programming, Fr. Bill who ran a school for 1200 average immigrant Italian and working class families where the kids never finished below the 95th percentile (and where parents paid tuition of only a couple hundred dollars, if they could)?  Can we celebrate the courage of an Archbishop Romero or the success of the Jesuits in founding universities and secondary schools all over the world, while also condemning the hypocrisy of some pious frauds and laughing at some of the silly medieval pageantry?

I realize Bob, that your comment is addressing Suzanne, but I'd like to add my comment, as well.

I will gladly join you in lauding those commendable people you listed, as Humans, but not as clergy. The clergy didn't bring what they are to those people, they brought what they are to the clergy.

I'll sorta second that.

While I can commend the works/actions that benefit others done from a humanistic/selfless (if that's possible (a different subject)) POV.

I won't commend any works/actions which stems from a core ideology of any type of Theism (doGs).

Theism poisons the minds of those who embrace the ideology, as evidence I refer you to the posts of one Professor Bob.


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