Is your trust in science based on faith or based on science?

What I mean is this: how much do you actually know about the science most atheists parrot? Most atheists know as little science as most Christians know as little theology. Just as a Christian trusts his priest to tell him what he believes, an atheist trusts scientists with a Ph.D. tacked to their name to tell them what they believe. But how many times have the scientists turned out to be wrong? I only ask this because it seems this is central to the problem that most atheists have. They are repulsed by the phrase “believe” – they are addicted instead to the phrase “know”. But honestly, do you really know, or are you just believing what you’re told? I would like to remind you that in the 1970′s the scientists of the day were seriously concerned that we were about to enter an ice age, and less than 30 years later they are now convinced Earth is about to turn into a desert.

Unless you’ve observed something yourself, or observed and interpreted the evidence yourself and drew your own conclusions, you are just as guilty as faith as any religious person.

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(Your middle name isn't Richard, right?)

I'm not sure it's OK for you to have a sense of humour.  Your deity doesn't have one, and the bible doesn't have anyone in it who laughs, tells a joke, or even exhibits a sense of irony.  All those pages, and not one smirk.

Well, that's not entirely true, the writer/writers of the Yahwist source used to like to do an almost Shakespearean play on words, as in:

Polonius: "It seems (etc.)"

Hamlet: "M'lord, methinks I know not seams."

Sorry I don't have any biblical examples at my fingertips and don't have time to look them up, as I have to go work in my yard, and by that, I mean take a nap.

Surely you're joking!   We generally think God has quite a sense of humor, and the Bible is full of wit and irony.   Some gets lost in translation, I'll grant, and over centuries of expensive hand-copying the jokes tend to get left out, but it's really not at all as drab as you make out.

@Professor Robert - Fantastic!  I had no idea!  You're quite right, I'm no biblical expert.  Please give me a couple of biblical jokes, or examples of god's humour (not that I don't believe you, I just like evidence where possible).  A few would be cool - I may not get the odd one, so a short sampling of biblical humour would be wonderful!

So tell us one of your god's knee-slappers - was it when he was speaking through Baalam's donkey, and talking out of his ass? (rimshot!)

Two questions, one serious and one not so much.

1: Can you explain why it is moral to deny people like me the right to marry the people we love?

2: Do you have a doctorate? Because if you do, I'd like to know if you like the Beatles also.

Yeah, that Yahweh, what a kidder. The joke he played on Job was a knee-slapper.

At least those are briefs!   @Gallup needs the Looonggg pants version. ;-)

*Giggles* Thank you for the flattery, Robert. My wife certainly has no complaints. Best keep those fantasies about the length in my pants to yourself, though. I'm spoken for, ya randy old coot!

@Bob - fifth time asked - Do you think contraception should be used freely.

Are gays welcome in your church, are they allowed to marry, as is assumed by the rest of society?

I actually find it a hoot to see just how many questions Bob circumvents :0

It is corruption resulting from the influence of sports that must be keeping coaches and karate instructors etc.

And - The amount of money laundered in a typical American city in a week or two of the drug trade?

Jerry Sandusky - Anybody protecting him should also go to jail.

There you go, yet again - 'Look, look, they are doing it overt there too - the problem with this, is that any other group, drug thugs, sports, business, boy scouts, teachers etc. etc. are not protected by law, how many times has that been stated - it is not that I don''t like religious people, I don't like hypocrites, I don't like charlatans of any persuasion - and religions of most persuasions top the list of hypocrites, charlatans and unethical dregs of society. I don't need to know if any person is religious or not, I always go on behavior, that is all, and I have found, in my own circles that I have travelled, that christians are the biggest hypocrites of all, even then, it is not to say, that all religious people or all christians are hypocrites, but certainly most. Then there are the sheep, innocently propping up these dens of iniquity and corruption.

They are dysfunctional when it comes to situations which require decisiveness and real leadership - No where near it - they don't understand what the rape of a child by an adult male means - they don't see that is horrific, and actually make inquires from the thousands of parents, that is what they didn't do. Parents and children were shunted off, sometimes paid off to shut up and go away - they knew, and for you to claim naivety, is just tragic. It is truly amazing that you just keep on making excuses for this inexcusable on any level, behavior.

So, you and your church depend, rely, quote, know, the legalities that protect the dregs, who would have thought.

One of the challenges is that for a time at least the priesthood was a bit of a refuge for sexually repressed and deviant characters like Shanley. - Popes used to marry, priests used to marry have children, lead normal lives, rules were changed, business and property were more important, and that is what the catholic church has been for hundreds of years, a totally dysfunctional organization, that has the sacrifice of its children and the misogyny of women,  on it's hands.

Bravo, well done.

I was bought up to 'believe' - the catholic church was the epitome of morality, and that anybody of any other persuasion would be going to hell.

And all this time priests were raping children - go figure.

Do you really think petitions are effective?  If so, why?  Particularly online petitions.

Oh No, Bob - they don't 'work' at all, that is why hundreds are sent around the world every day, enlightening citizens of the world, what is going on in their world - and now hundreds of thousands more people around the world, know to the extent of the rape and pillage of the world's most innocent,  children - by the catholic church.

I signed a petition for the Catholic Parents and Children of Ireland - the government was dragged kicking and screaming to oust the vatican authority from their midst, and this used to be one of the 'most' catholic nations . I didn't realise the extent of the abuse in that country, except for the information of a Petition. The knowledge of a Petition can change society, it certainly did in Ireland.

Grass roots, Bob, grass roots. They can change governments and oust religious leaders.

I actually doubt, if any petition actually does get through to the pope, it would be good if it did get to him, maybe a whistleblower is also in their midst, the pope would be secluded from knowledge, and the extent of, this particular travesty, going on in his church - and the amount of people who now know to the extent of the rape and then the cover-up. Petitions are also a mine of information - and are just another reason why people are leaving in droves, and churches are up for sale.  These catholics have more morals and ethics and a conscience.

They sign Petitions. 

Hopefully, there may be some good guys with Francis who just may try to clean these dregs out of their society, but they will also be protecting their source of lifestyle and money from wealthy, dodgy benefactors. But one can only hope.

Grass roots, Bob, grass roots - rely on the catholic church to change anything really important, not going to happen.

Jut keep sitting on your hands, and stay in your bubble.

There you go, yet again - 'Look, look, they are doing it overt there too - the problem with this, is that any other group, drug thugs, sports, business, boy scouts, teachers etc. etc. are not protected by law, how many times has that been stated

They have no more, nor less, protection from the law than clergy.   What you have to establish to make a claim about religion, or just my religion, is that it differed in a substantive way from other groups.   You haven't established that, so it's not fair to make a claim about religion.

Read the L.A. Times pieces on the Boy Scouts, and you'll see the same patterns almost exactly.

Popes used to marry, priests used to marry have children, lead normal lives

Ummm.... you do realize that most pedophiles are hetero, and many of them are married with kids, right?  Folks leading "normal lives" as far as I know are just as likely to be perpetrators.  The worst case I know of locally involved a husband and wife in youth ministry.

I was bought up to 'believe' - the catholic church was the epitome of morality, and that anybody of any other persuasion would be going to hell.

Then you were brought up poorly.  I'm sorry for that.   Priests are human.  They can commit murder, rape, fraud, tax evasion, or just be jackasses, same as everyone else.  I think only one, the Cure of Ars, has ever been canonized a saint. 

If your belief in an idea depends on the idea's proponents being sinless, then good luck.  Galileo by all reports was an ass.  Washington and Jefferson were slave owners, and Jefferson engaged in at least some form of rape.   Isaac Newton was a wealthy dandy who ran to the countryside to avoid the plague rather than staying to help the suffering.   As teaching faculty,  I can promise you none of your teachers or professors are going to be free of all error or hypocrisy. 

Yet, perhaps, maybe, Newton's ideas might still be useful?  The stuff you were taught in school or university might still be worthwhile?

Galileo, Washington, Jefferson and Newton were not claiming to be the font of morality. Religion (and the Catholic Church in particular) is. Given the Church's inability to act in an ethical manner (protecting rapists, enslaving women, letting women die rather than perform medical procedures that could save them, lying about condoms spreading AIDS, just plain lying in general), there is no reason for any rational person to place any confidence in anything they have to say on the matter of ethics or morality. 



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