As an atheist I have spent a lot of time trying to show theists the problems in their arguments, showing the indisputable science that shows that evolution is real, sexual orientation is biologically predetermined and cannot be eradicated with "therapy" [which the American Psychological Association condemned years ago]... etc.

The message never seems to get through. Is there really any point? I have never been able to change anyone's minds...
Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone ever been able to crack into their thick skulls?

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It's rare for there to be a "Oh! Okay!" moment. usually it is a slow, gradual process, with each little argument and point building up over time to a gradual realization.


So yeah, there is a point, but it's unlikely that you'll see instant or even quick results.



I've deconverted everyone i've ever dated, many close friends, and several family members. This didn't dawn on me until recently because in every case it was such a gradual process.


My current boyfriend went to church every weekend when I met him. His deconversion took a couple years of dropping frequent doubt grenades and an incredibly large dose of Sagan.
wow impressive :) good job! lol

        It is very difficult to "crack a skull" that has been hardened by a combination of the fear of death and the near total abandonment of real science in American schools.  Every school - elementary and secondary - should have a class devoted exclusively to critical thinking.  But there are none.  Science teachers spend their time showing how a flower is pollinated, but none explaining how to evaluate the ludicrous claims of homeopathy.  And they would not DARE hold religion up to scientific scrutiny.  

One of the biggest false controversies is whether the states are going to allow creationism (in the form of "intelligent design") to be taught in schools; or whether there should be disclaimers about the validity of evolution inserted into science textbooks.  That obscures the real situation: evolution is NOT being taught in the schools competently, if at all, right now.  Teachers refuse to teach it if it conflicts with what their mommies and daddies told them when they were young, and administrators are too cowardly to make them do it.  Or if they do teach it, they do so very poorly because they were never taught properly themselves.  There are colleges (like mine) who never even MENTION evolution (and I was a biology major).  Textbooks gloss over the huge topic of evolution in a page or two. More than half of all Americans disbelieve the most robust theory in the history of scientific thought - the most profound insight ever gained into the nature of biology - Darwinian evolution.  Virtually the entire civilized world understands and accepts evolution as the best and only viable explanation of what we observe in nature.  Except ignorant Americans.        

I agree, Americans are so sheltered nowadays. I would have loved to have a religious debate in high school, but everyone is afraid to because they don't want their views to be shaken. It is never a pleasant feeling, i'll admit, to question your own world view, but it is of vital importance! I was, however, taught about evolution at my high school, and I lived in a dominantly theist area, but that is about as far as it went, except for a particular day near my graduation, one of my teachers (who was also a dedicated church member) had a serious "talk" to all of his students, saying how he cares about us all and truly wishes that one day all of us would find a relationship with our Savior and how great it woud be if we did. Nobody really bothered to talk about it afterwards.
This is a quote i came up with long ago and it sums it up..

"People believe what they choose to believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, because they either need to believe it or want it to be true and no matter what you do they will hold onto that belief with utter tenacity because their need or want is greater than their ability to deal with fact."

I have not read through all the responces of this tread- ( at 10 cents a minute ((crew rate)) can't stay on line too long)

Science is not "indisputable" it is alway open to further testing... but it is as we know it, at the current level of understanding--- but it is very hard to change the minds of a BELIEVER -- facts are not anything to them- they like to use technology thay doesn't work for any other reason (i.e. internet, medicine and more) but those "facts " do not mean anything to them and hey don't understand the irony in using the technology to spread their lies, bs, and agenda-

You are not doing anything wrong- as far as I know- some people are just unreachable- facts and science are stupid to them- and to some atheists as well-  some people just don't get it- what ever it is--

Sorry I'd write more but my intternet  card is about to die- later and sorry for any grammatical errors- in all my late night messages-

that is the empirical question of what is an atheist, thought about making a discussion on atheist code... so the question is what should an atheist do? a christian has this obligation to talk but we don't, and what then if someone holds a gun to you're head and asks are you a christian or an atheist will you die for your 'faith'?

there's an atheist book i read that stated belief is a survival technique stronger than fact so you fear the dark when there's nothing there. Yeah i dont think you'll convince anyone who doesnt doubt, if you will it will be a slow accumulative thing and as they begin to doubt they'll probably exile you and you'll never see them for some time. maybe the guy you tell today this and that will think about it for ten years and finally become an atheist.

atheism is not that fuzzy feeling in you're heart, you gradually not a testimonial all of a sudden posesed by the holy spirit thing. if you really want to change a person i'm afrain you'll have to become like an atheist jehovah witness bugging someone till you're sure you planted a seed of doubt (common sense) that could sprout, we dont tell people to become, they'll have to choose for themselves.

My cousin arrived yesterday to my house .... we are very close friends . I previously changed  my religion status  on facebook from muslm to atheist ... he thought I was just kidding and henever mentioned that to me  because he was sure it wasn't true ...   anyway , yesterday, when he got here and after having dinner together , I broached the topic and told him that I don't believe that there is any god upthere ...actulayy I felt as if i would lose him because he is both friend and relative ... I don' have any intentions to tell anyone about my story  in my country here....he was an exception for he is very educated and seondly because we are good friends .

he is still sleeping now right there ,literally snoring,lol ! and when he wakes up Iam frankly  not going to try to prove anything to him ... hope he won't   try avoiding me or so ...


 to sum up , it is hard to convince theists ...

 thanks for sharing

hate to appear frank but muslim are more protective of their faith, do a recon an think if the truth ever came out if you're life is in danger. my friends as christians felt obliged minimally to actually KILL ME. it's great to share but we the atheist are few and like gays very badly thought of.

yeah agree , islam as an ideology is doing a great job ... muslims are sure that they believe in the only right religion. They think they are happy , they are sure that non-muslims are having troubled souls and unhappy lives ... I have another friend who , unfortunately lives in another city and who is also a best friend ,who knows that I am atheist  ... he knows my story and he is cool with that ; I didn't notice any change in his behaviour towards me... he jus isn't sure wether there is a god or not and he doesn't care.

It's impossible , for me, to try to discuss religion with everyone in my country , I tried that with these friends  because they are real friends and also because the are educated .

I once tried to mention this , indirectly , to some other good friends (not open minded and not  that educated) and their reaction was not good at all .I wouldn't say killing me , but hating and avoiding me for good !

There isn't a POINT to anything or everything.



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