I was just wondering. I mean I have definitely heard a lot of BAD arguments that try to prove god exists, the bible is true, etc etc.


We've all heard the many faulty arguments containing fallacies and nonsense before.


But I can't think of any argument which makes logical sense that does support the existence of god, accuracy of the bible, or the justification of a religion before.


Please bring up one, I am interested to hear a good argument from a theist standpoint.



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And more than that, anyone who could give a strong enough argument for the existence of God that he or she can't answer has a bit of a problem defending being an atheist.

Otoh if you don't have such an argument it would be dishonest to present it to someone else. At least I would feel as if I gave someone a broken watch.

I dont see any value in religion. As for the arguement that religion gives a sense of community then I would say that to them that the rotary club offers the same thing.

atleast where i live, violence, crime, mutual respect and community are statistically better in religious areas.

still doesn't make god real though... 

Too bad the Israeli-Palestinian conflict screws up those statistics.
i wasen't talking about violence between populations. in that respect- there is no doubt that religion is a major factor in escalating violence. i was actually reffering to what goes on inside the jewish society- children who are the product of the state run secular system, versus the state run religious system.

Not the link you discuss but an ol Russell's teapot comic on the topic.

Among the Hareidy (ultra orthodox) Jewish community, that is certainly true- they see it as a sin to extradite criminals to the secular authorities, and prefer to keep  things inside the community.

leading hareidi rabbis have called out that whoever brings a case to the secular authorities (IE supreme court) will certainly go to hell. recently there have been three such cases:  the first was a hareidy father who shook his baby to death. the second was an insane hareidy mother who starved and tortured her child to so she could treat him, and the third was a religious hareidy school which illegally enforced racist segregation between students who's grandparents were originally jewish immigrants from Europe and those who's grandparents were originally jewish immigrants from Arab countries and Africa. in all cases it was clear to all that the defendants were guilty- but massive violent demonstrations were held by hareidi Jews over their claim that the state, as a secular entity, had no right to judge them. 

So yes- they do tend to sweep things under the rug in order to uphold their desired impression.

But they are not the only religious society in Israel, and others are much more open. in general though, there is much more violence in Israeli secular schools, towards students and teachers. Religious jewish teenagers do tend to be statistically more polite, respectful towards others, naïve, innocent, and socially active. It is a common saying here that the best and most moral atheists are the ex-religious. Believe it or not, there are even some atheists, who choose to live in religious surroundings so that their kids will grow up in a healthier moral atmosphere.

I'm talking about less violence, drugs, pornography and alcohol, and more community, mutual respect, consideration and innocence. Of course you can find evils everywhere, but for me it comes down to statistics. As someone who plans on having kids in the next few years, it pains me as an atheist to admit these things, but it also worries me when I see the state of the secular education system here- so filled with violence, stupidity, underachievement, cruelty, inadequate teachers, teen sex, and drugs.

And once again I want to stress that I by no means think this has anything to do with "god". I am convinced that the reason the Israeli secular education system is so bad isn't because of lack of religion, but rather the utter lack of a moral and social curriculum to take the place previously filled by religion.  


I don't understand. How is your body religious? Mine is fine with me not believing in a god and not being religious in general.

I don't really know what to say about this. I have never heard about something like this until now (and I think you said this in another discussion as well). Perhaps it's like the need to smoke, once you've stopped smoking. I don't know. Once you quit something, you're body is not really synchronized with your brain which knows you shouldn't and don't really want to do that thing again, but the body is still used to you doing that thing and it feels weird not doing it. I don't really know what to say about this without just making a guess. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, I don't know... If anyone knows more about this can give you a more informed opinion.

Your situation is really interesting. I would like to hear what someone more informed has to say about it and its real causes.

@ Fred

You're derailing this thread. I hate when people derail threads. I hate when people say they dont want to derail a thread, YET still derail it.


Sorry, just saying. I know controversial topics always can get off topic, and I can accept this, But it's really annoying when people say they don't want to post irrelevant info in a topic and STILL DO IT. It's happened twice in this thread (if not more). sheesh.

@ Fred's original post

Have you taken a course in Critical Thinking? How about any Philosophy course at least? jeez.


I'm referring to the "Critical-Thinking"-definition of Logic. 



What I accept as logical sense is an argument which does not contain any logical fallacies.



How about Psychology? Have you taken a course in Psychology? What you refer to as "not doing experiments without telling people because they will become part of the setup" can be referred to as hindsight bias.



Now that I got that out, I will refer back to your message in the post you wrote.


First of all, I do not understand what you are saying. I don't know if you've taken a course in Critical Thinking, Psychology, and now, I'm not sure if you've taken a course in English. 


What do you mean by this sentence? "Paul Kurtz that most likely is very proud of being very logical him a kind of philosopher and all :)" The structure is so erroneous I can barely understand it.


It is hard to interpret that sentence. What are you trying to say??? huhhh??? Also I dont understand what you say right after that, when you are trying to describe the experiment.


Okay now I will try to interpret what you said. What I understood was there's an experiment that proves only 10% of people are not needy enough to give up religion. 

---Well what I will ask you now is where did you get this info? Could you provide a link to the experiment? I just want to know because you didn't do a good job explaining it to me.


And not every human experiment has to be 'unethical'. I don't know all the details of what this guy wrote, so please link me to his book/article/research/experiment. I mean like where did he come up with this statistic of "10%" without testing it already.......


I'm just so confused by your post......


Next, I really don't get your religious body/ atheist logic reference...... I mean I read your explanation below but it really just.... doesn't make sense..... sorry.


And Lastly, I would just like to apologize if this whole post of mine sounds mean, disrespectful, or just plain rude..... It's just when I read your post honestly in my mind I was just shaking my head....I was just thinking in my head, "HUH??".  Honestly. sorry...... 



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