Truth is, if there was solid evidence for the existence of God, it then would be a point of fact with no room for faith.

Therefore is it possible that the continued neutrality is being sustain by God for our benefit?

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Of course Hunter Gatherers, existed at all times, even as they do today. The point is, the traditional view is that, that's all that existed prior to civilization cropping up in Mesopotamia.

And how does that support your contention (a contention I'm slowly losing any grasp of). So please remind me of both. What is the importance?

And that notion of an oldest known civilization, keeps getting pushed back. If you are familiar with the writings of Joseph Campbell, he summarized the existing notions of his day that is found in our histroy books. Civilization sprouted from the fertile Crescent and prior to that, there were just hunter gatherers during the Neolithic age. I state that there was a whole Genesis before ours, even with its own advanced civilization before if was destroyed. Most of the advance civilization existed along to coast of continents, Dwarka for instance. When the Glaciers melted, all evidence of the advance civilizations were inundated. Some call this Noahaic flood, but I disagree. I call it the destruction of a pre-existing Genesis, along with it's Mega fuana. Of course it can be equally argued that the prior age ended just due to climatic changes, well in my book the same difference.

So the bible starts with the inundated ruins of the prior Genesis: "And darkness was upon the face of the depths.."


Best. Answer. Ever.

It is absolutely possible and the reason is that God is intentionally relational. He cannot be reduced to data. The benefit you are referring to is the personal relationship you can have with God.

For all those who don't have evidence, go out and look for it yourselves. It is worth the search. Ask Christians why they believe. Don't wait for them to come to you. If they don't have an answer, that's their problem. Keep searching with an open heart and you'll find your evidence. I say "heart" because its a relationship that God wants. He doesn't just want you to know He's there. That is completely meaningless unless you know Him personally.

I have a friend named Greg who shared with me his evidence for believing. When he was 9 years old, he was in southeast Asia with his parents, who were missionaries, when he was diagnosed with a terminal illness. He was taken to the best hospital in the area and not one doctor believed he was going to live much longer. Soon after, a Christian couple came in and prayed for him and the VERY NEXT DAY, he was completely healed. Upon examination, not one doctor believed that what happened was possible. There was no explanation. How is that not evidence that there is a higher power in control?

Another friend of mine, named Jim, didn't believe in God at all. One day, he decided to ask God (if He was real) to show him in some amazing and extreme way that He was out there. Not long after, Jim was diagnosed with cancer. You can only imagine he hated God at this point. It got worse and worse, and no treatment was working. Jim was soon told that he was going to die in less than two months. The only chance he had was a bone marrow transplant. They searched for exact matches only to find that there was one and only one match available. A sixteen year old girl, who happened to be an atheist. Against all odds, the transplant was successful and Jim recovered. The whole scenario was God's answer to his request. Evidence right there.

Could you cite any news articles that reference these amazing occurrences?  I’m sure anything as astounding as these examples of yours would have made at least local news.

He can tell you himself actually.

*the girl was 19, my bad

Wow. Just wow. 

This guy asked god to make himself real to him. Asked for a sign when he was a college student. Got cancer when he was 29 years old. Well, color me chagrined! That's obviously a direct cause, because, well, you know, no one gets cancer unless god gives it to them - even if he takes a few years to get around to it! 

Oh - and the guy telling his own story is not the kind of documentation that Obfuskation asked for.

Interesting that he makes a living through deception and self-promotion. Just sayin'.  OK - now that I've stepped into the realm of ad hominum attacks ... in for a penny, in for a pound!

Check out his profile on this website ( The melodrama is rich. "When faced with the choices of how to proceed, Jim knew his best chance of living was to allow himself to die first.  Chemotherapy to destroy blood cells. New blood to replace his own.  Yet how could he allow himself to endure the agony?" Oh I don't know - maybe he could endure the agony of a bone marrow transplant because it's what virtually every other person faced with the same situation has done.

I checked out your link.  It is from [I Am Second]; a group with a theistic agenda.  Their productions go for dramatic effect, and play on emotions.  They rely on testimonial, and not scientific evidence. It could be noted that a great many scam artists use testimonials to support their cons.

I did a few quick Google searches of Jim Munroe. He is a professional stage magician who works with church groups. It is natural that I Am Second would use him; he has presence. These two things leave us with a fairly respectable possibility that this is simply theistic theater.

If his story is true, acute lymphocytic leukemia has a roughly 60% recovery rate, while the chronic variety has a recovery rate of roughly 70%. He states in his video that his variety was “rare”, yet does not elaborate. He also goes into a dramatic tangent where he talks about the medical staff using quasi-religious “terminology”. I know a few people in the medical field, and one of them has been a nurse in a cancer ward for almost two decades. I have never heard quasi-mystic or quasi-religious terminology used in the medical field, ever.

This leads me to conclude that chances are very good that your link is simply to a manipulative testimonial made by a group with an obvious religious agenda. However, even if the story is true, it can only be counted as the emotionally driven story of a person who went through a traumatic experience, and in no way gives evidence to the existence of a magic sky daddy.

I love how you twisted the word evidence to mean something completely different. Seems legit.

Just because something is unlikely or difficult to explain does not mean the answer is magic. Two stories where the individuals were looking for magic, and then subjectively decide that magic is the best explanation, is not evidence. Lack of imagination is the only thing that is proven by not being able to come up with a non-magic explanation.

If there was one match, that means the bone marrow transplant was not against ALL odds. The fact that it was an atheist has zero bearing on the story. Unlikely outcomes are still possible - without magic. It was the bone marrow transplant that saved the dude - doctors, science, medicine and all that other NON-magic stuff.

As for the other story - unlikely outcome, perhaps, but still possible without magic. There are certainly alternative explanations. Even things as unsavory as the faulty memory of a 9-year-old, or an initial misdiagnosis. Those explanations don't fit your narrative, but are still possible. Without being able to go back and recreate the situation, let's call it a draw - maybe your explanation is right, maybe one of mine is. So again, it is not evidence of magic just because the people in the story couldn't provide a different explanation.

I happen to have an atheist friend with cancer. Based on how the cancer had progressed, this friend was supposed to have died three or four years ago, but is still alive and kicking. All the treatments had been tried, nothing was stopping the cancer. How is my friend still alive? Hell if I know, but it happens. Some folks just beat the odds - and it has jack diddly to do with magic.

So now let's get down to the real nitty-gritty. I'll go along with your contention that your two anecdotes are proof that a higher power is in control. So he picked a couple of individuals upon whom to bestow his healing powers, meanwhile, hundreds, thousands, millions of other people in equally difficult circumstances who pray with full faith and earnestness - they have to stay sick, hungry, poor, fill-in-the-blank)?

No cop-out "god works in mysterious ways" answer, please. If you're going to cite as proof the stories that you know two people who prayed and something great happened, then I get to cite the millions who pray but are left to suffer daily as proof that your god is a prick.

Who's got a better cure rate - god, or doctors? Based on real results, I'm putting my life in the hands of the doctors, not the prayers, every time.


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