Micheal i have been doing some research here and it seems the reason some people date that to 600bce is because of certain loanwords in it that had fallen out of general use in 200bce. but this prove nothing as it makes the assumption that language had progressed at the same rate in all places, something that did not happen in the bronze age as settlements and societies where very insular due to the difficulty of traveling between them. But even if this was the case there is no reason why it could not have been written in 500bce or 400bce when those loanwords where still in general use. Andd furthermore it is only fragments of one scroll where it is like this and those fragments do not deal with the so called prophecies , so as i said earlier they could have taken an old story and added so called prophecies to it after they had already happened. You should really take a look at the mother shipton prophecies to see how this is done
@ Rocky john:
You and many scholars have that opinion. particularly those that sight the predictive nature of Daniel.
However, even if it dates to 200 BCE. The amount years between King Artaxerxes giving the order to restore Jerusalem and the Messiah was accurately foretold. Moreover it accurately foretold the destruction of the Temple by the Roman Prince, which occurred in 70 AD by Vespasian.
We all must make some determination since we all have been expose to this.
There is nothing one could argue from a logical point of view that would justify faith.
Thus anyone who takes the leap of faith is certainly the worlds fool.
Yet that blatant conclusion makes it smell of something that only eternal purpose would author. And the world's conclusion has been prophesied, which make even more intriguing. Personally I think humoring this is more intriguing than Harry Potter.
Frankly, I think humoring you is less intriguing than watching grass grow.
Strange, you are still here !?
This is mental gymnastics. What this proves is faith has no logical basis. You say if it doesn't make sense, that doesn't disprove it, because God reasonably make no sense. Yes. God should make no sense.
A human child still is confused by the intellect of parents even though the levels in comparison between hypothethical human and god and human and child are far more dispersed. So no God not making sense doesn't disprove his existence. However, it does add fuel to the fire that he indeed may not exist.
This is why... Have you ever heard of misplaced faith? People have misplaced faith all of the time. So yeah, faith making no sense does not disprove God. However, it also looks just like all of the other things you would reasonably call misplaced faith as well. That makes it one more thing about God that could stack the deck against his existence.
I took this as a question. I answered NO (as an atheist) but in the case of xtian vs. atheist views, and the contention being unresoved in the eyes of science and religion, therefore making it "neutral"..I'd say it is being sustained by the xtian god for our benefit.
I think I see what you are getting at. A Christian has to conclude something like this. It is something pretty easy for a Christian to come up with because of their belief system having a high veneration of faith.
I remember hearing a story from a professor in one of my classes who was in papua new guinea, and living with one of the tribes there. These people were given a western education in schools as kids. As I remember the story, he mentioned hearing a commotion and asked what was going on. The villagers replied to him "someone has malaria, so we are holding a meeting to figure out who cursed that person with it" . He said "didn't you learn where malaria came from in school?" they said "Yeah, we learned it came from a mosquito. We all know that. What we need to figure out is who SENT the mosquito".
It is a great example of having to make your beliefs fit into your reality.
Isn't that known as Confirmation Bias?
Richard Elliot Friedman wrote a book entitled, The Hidden Face of God, in which he traces the biblical transition from god strolling through the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, to his statement in Isiah or Jerimiah (forget which, and don't have time to look it up), in which, disgusted with the behavior of the Israelites (a seemingly favorite pasttime of his), he said, "I will hide my face from them," on through the last century, in which Nietzsche made his famous "God is dead" pronouncement, echoed by Doestoevsky.
My own belief is that as Man has matured as a species, we have outgrown our primitive need for a supernatural Father Figure, and just as we invented him in the first place, so we're gradually fading him out of existence.
"Where is the graveyard of dead gods?
What lingering mourner waters their mounds?"
-- H. L. Menken --
Certainly a strong sentiment in Europe. Why are we American so pigheaded?
I don't know, but it is disturbing. I feel like I'm sailing on a very large, unsteady ship of fools.
Reminds me of the quote by CHIEF DAN GEORGE , CANADIAN INDIAN CHIEF & film director, 1910-?: "When the White man came we had the land & they had the Bibles, now they have the land & we have the Bibles." Canada always seems so sorted. :)
Anyway, one thing nobody can doubt is that whatever god the theists worship as their maker and creator is that this god remains completely hidden. This alone should get them to think but no they can accept a purely subjective belief that they can see him and communicate with him but never make it objective to anyone else. They claim he can read their minds, give them free will and if they believe with faith that they will get a second life that is more than 1000 billion years long – as eternity is. I will not remain neutral when delusions are being offered as Truth. He made the Universe – can you not hear how silly that sounds? More theological rhetoric please!! The paradigm needs it.