Is it religions fault that the discrimination against the GLBT exists?

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I think religion is why there's discrimination against the GLBT community, however I don't think religion is the foundation for the rejection of homosexuality in all cultures. I think different cultures view homosexuality in different ways. I don't think there'd be any serious discussion of homosexuality in this culture if the GLBT community didn't bring it to the forefront by demanding "rights."  I think people (religious or otherwise) would not agree with it for "religious" reasons (using the bible as the basis of their decision) in this culture, but I don't think they'd attack it as they have since it became an open "social" issue. 

I also think this is not the case in other cultures where "homosexuality" is viewed differently, mainly not sexually or pleasure seeking, (appealing to the same area of the brain as materialism), but an anomaly of Nature. 

Oh, yes, all those 'special rights...' Like being able to walk down the street holding hands with the person they love, share their commitment to each other in a legally and publicly legitimate way without risking their jobs, their lives, raise an adopted child with them, have that person be with them in the hospital, inherit their property.

Geez, you're right, how dare they! Why can't they just pretend to be like everyone else? If they'd just accept that they are second class citizens, no one would get upset with them! Next thing you know, colored people will be asking for the equal rights! And women will want to vote! Disgraceful! 

You are a bigot.

Do you know in some African countries men walk down the street holding hands but they don't sleep together.  Somehow in a society that feels they are "boundless", this feeling of male bonding may get confused with the culture's need for power and dominance over others and their own "boundless" pleasure. (which emanates from the mammalian brain, the largest and least resistant of all three brains.)

And please don't equate racial equal rights with homosexuality. Equal rights for "black" people affects ALL people's rights equally.  Homosexuality does not apply to ALL people.  Mith, "COLORED PEOPLE?"  Are you saying white folks "colored" them or what? 

But what do I know?

Not equate equal racial rights with equal rights for sexual preference? That's a ludicrous statement. Equal rights for ALL people affects ALL people, period, full stop. The very same arguments that attempt to justify discrimination against homosexuality were used to justify discrimination against women, against blacks, against atheists. It doesn't matter if you're black, white, queer, straight, male, female, trans, whatver, equal rights are equal rights. Equality is NOT 'special rights.'

 And if you couldn't tell that my use of the term 'colored people' was SARCASM, I don't think we are even speaking the same language. I stand by my assessment; you are a bigot.

When were equal rights for sexual preference ever removed? Oh now you call me a bigot..lol here we go down that road.

Did you know that in Roman times before Christianity, same sex marriage was actually legal in Greece and Rome? Then along came Christianity and screwed everything all up, with their religious ideals. Thats all this one man and one woman rubbish is btw, its a religious idea. A religious ideal I reject. 

So rights were taken away when religion dominated.

I think religion is what has allowed such discrimination to persist, even though discrimination may have occurred anyway.

My response is similar.  I don't think that religion caused homophobia, but in many cases it did make homophobia doctrinal, which makes it much harder to get rid of.

But Mith your interpretation is from the human's perspective. Would it apply to the "animal?"  

How do you know that the animals behavior is related to mating, bonding, sex, or sexual contact?  The DNA code for that behavior could mean something entirely different, that's just how WE interpret it. 

OK now birds are homosexuals.  Interesting how people perceive things. As for the primates, I'd think if homosexuality (as we define it) was a natural occurrence in Nature, everything on the planet would be homo sexually inclined. Is this a fact? 

Again I ask, how do we know that the animal behavior is what we call "homosexuality and how much of it is due to our own interference with their environment?  For example the removal of rain forest, habitat therefore food sources, the introduction of disease which may mark "gender" imbalance etc. inadvertent killing of species for profit which also creates imbalances. 

I think you would think that other species share our anthropological concepts because you keep insisting that they have homosexual acts/behaviors. 

Yes your sexual preference does have a barring on your answers. Whether actively, passively or just plain open to boundless behaviors...I really didn't mean to be offensive.  

But Mith your interpretation is from the human's perspective. Would it apply to the "animal?"  

If I'm not mistaken, her perspective is the scientific perspective, which seeks to remove as much human bias as is possible.  I'm not sure why you persist in portraying it as something personalized.  As a third party to the conversation, it really doesn't appear that way.

OK now birds are homosexuals.  Interesting how people perceive things. As for the primates, I'd think if homosexuality (as we define it) was a natural occurrence in Nature, everything on the planet would be homo sexually inclined. Is this a fact? 

There are examples in captivity and in the wild of birds forming persistant homosexual pairings.  It has nothing to do with how people perceive things.  As for all species exhibiting homosexuality, I have no idea why you would assume that.  If it is a biological condition, there's no guarantee that species with differing biology would all express the same conditions/ behaviours/ traits.

I think you would think that other species share our anthropological concepts because you keep insisting that they have homosexual acts/behaviors. 

This does't make the slightest bit of sense unless you assume from the beginning that homosexuality is strictly anthropological.  It's circular reasoning.

Again I ask, how do we know that the animal behavior is what we call "homosexuality and how much of it is due to our own interference with their environment?

We know that animal behaviour is homosexuality because they are preferentially copulating with members of the same sex, in some cases persistently or even for their entire mating lives.  It is not more complicated than that.  I'm sure that some cases are ambiguous, but others are not.  Actually, looking back, this was already answered.  Are you even reading what she wrote?

As for human interference in their environment, why is that relevant here?  We are talking about the actual behaviour of animals in their actual environments.  If human activity has affected either, that's unfortunate, but it's the current reality we live in.  I don't see the point in arguing from some hypothetical, non-existent reality what would have, could have, should have been.

And please don't equate racial equal rights with homosexuality. Equal rights for "black" people affects ALL people's rights equally.  Homosexuality does not apply to ALL people. 

I can't make sense of this.  Why do the rights of homosexuals not apply to all people?  Because not all people are homosexuals?  Not all people are black.  Perhaps I've missed the point you're trying to make here.

Bravo! Well said, with considerably more patience that I could have mustered. Thanks! :)

I think your original wording was quite good, but it occurs to me that the conversation with Shabaka is a lost cause at this point.  I don't know if there's too much of a language barrier or a misunderstanding on how science works, but something clearly isn't clicking.

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