Is it religions fault that the discrimination against the GLBT exists?

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Shabaka, What do you mean by "Your "facts" aren't my "facts"...that makes me a bigot? " Facts are facts. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.

lol no facts sometimes are not facts..depends on the belief levels.

But beliefs are not based on "facts" they are based on faith. There are no facts in beliefs

fact noun /fakt/

A thing that is indisputably the case.


So, by your reasoning, a thing that is indisputably the case is sometimes not indisputably the case. You know how mental that sounds, right?...

Would you also argue that evolution is not a fact since 40% of Americans apparently don't believe it? By your reasoning, since the "belief level" in evolution is low, it is not a fact?

try to influence everyone to accept their behavior.

No one is saying anyone has to accept or like the behavior of homosexuality. They are saying people who choose that lifestyle should be entitled to the same rights that you have. What is your concern with that?

Hey Robert, I lived in California, San Francisco to be exact and homosexuals are a very powerful lobby out there. No one is trying to take any "right" away from them, they can be "gay" all they want.  You cite ONE example of any government agency or court (except maybe the south) that is trying to take away the rights of "gays" to be gay. Marriage is not taking a rights AWAY from them, it's that they are trying to take the right away from people who have believed for the past 200 or so years that marriage is btw a man and woman. 

Personally I don't care, this is just how I see it.. In fact my personal feelings toward marriage may surprise you.

it's that they are trying to take the right away from people who have believed for the past 200 or so years that marriage is btw a man and woman. 

I have no idea what you are talking about? No one is suggesting the right of a man and a woman to get married should be "taken away".

I'm not talking about taking away rights. I'm talking about giving rights to people.

Do you think black people should be allowed to marry white people? If you do, then how is that any different then gay people wanting to get married?

Do you think owning a slave should be a right? This was a tradition and the law got rid of it.

The length of how long a tradition has been in-tact is not necessarily an indication of if that tradition should be questioned or changed.

Do you not think the true goal of so many people on this planet is to want to live and be treated as equals? Is that not your personal goal? Do you believe that some people should be treated less than others? If so why?

its all about rights, so when you vote remember this ..... do we really want some super religious  republican as our president..... Going backwards making us follow his own personal  idea of religion , using a book (bible) to dictate what we should be thinking  and doing as US citizens .... make sure you vote !!!! 

Robert you just got me all fired up after I read your  last reply !!!!

it's that they are trying to take the right away from people who have believed for the past 200 or so years that marriage is btw a man and woman.

People have the right to believe that marriage is between a man and a women, and no one is taking away their right to believe that. These people have no right, however, to force others to accept their belief and abide by them.

Can you see the distinction here? We cannot expect others to conform to our ideas, however saturated in tradition they are. The United States is melting pot of many, many cultures and beliefs... and we cannot allow even one belief system to override others. Beliefs are personal. They cannot be taken away. They can, however, be challenged or ignored by those who disagree.

Homosexuals have the right to pursue their own happiness, just like everyone else. Any state that denies homosexuals the right to marry is refusing to give them a right that should already belong to them... just like women have the right to vote or own land or hold office like any other human beings. The government was withholding something it owed to women from the start. The government was withholding the right to freedom from the slaves.

What you need to understand is that our government, and people who think their beliefs should reign supreme, are holding human rights hostage... and those who are demanding to have them are demanding something they are undeniably entitled to.

yes Cara I see the distinction but do you?  This "controversy about "gay" marriage is recent so whose forcing who to believe as they do? Marriage btw a man and a woman has been in force since forever. 

I disagree that the U.S. is a melting pot, it more like stew with the favoring being only ONE culture. 

I don't think anyone wants to deny homosexuals (except the extreme conservatives/fundamentalist) their "happiness."  Again marriage has been the union btw a man and woman, so is the issue homosexuals having the same "rights" as married people or just getting married?  If it's the latter why is that so important given that the rules have been in effect for hundreds of years? 

As for the rights of women to vote, does not change the basics principles/concepts of voting or land ownership changing the basic principles/concepts of land ownership. But marriage btw a man and a man or a woman and a woman changes the basic concept of marriage. 

Look I'm one black person in a sea of white folks who are raised to believe (and supported by academia, media and society in general because that's how they keep power/"supremacy") that their "facts" are the way of the world. 

So I do understand what this is all about. I was testing to find out if "free thinkers" where any different from other socialized whites. Jury is still out on that because I haven't heard from all of you, just the ones who are pro gay. 
 

Are you the same person that was posting under this name last night?  I honestly couldn't understand the broken English from before, at least not to the point I could hold an honest discussion.  It was unfortunate.

yes Cara I see the distinction but do you?  This "controversy about "gay" marriage is recent so whose forcing who to believe as they do? Marriage btw a man and a woman has been in force since forever. 

Since when do laws dictate people's beliefs?  How would a gay marriage law force you to change what you believe?  In Canada the government wants to impose mandatory minimums for prison sentences with which I staunchly disagree.  If the reform passes, it won't align with my views, but my beliefs remain constant.  The law can't change that.  If the reforms pass through legitimate legal processes, my rights have not been infringed in the slightest.  It is the same for same-sex marriage laws.  It does not alter anyone's personal beliefs, nor does it infringe their rights.

Marriage between a man and a woman has NOT been in force since forever.  Same-sex marriage wasn't officially banned in Rome until somewhere around the fourth or fifth century.  Prior to that, same-sex marriages did occur, though their frequency and legal status is hazy.  There has been no singular, unified definition of marriage since.  The argument of tradition DOES NOT WORK.  It does not have sound historical basis. Please do some research.

Again marriage has been the union btw a man and woman, so is the issue homosexuals having the same "rights" as married people or just getting married?  If it's the latter why is that so important given that the rules have been in effect for hundreds of years? 

Because homosexuals have suffered discrimination for hundreds of years.  Is it that hard to understand that people would want this to stop?

Do you know what else has been around "since forever"? Slavery and subjugation of women. So, according to your logic, black people should not have rocked the boat of tradition by demanding freedom from people's age-old belief they had a right to own other people. Slavery has been around longer than Christianity, longer than Rome, longer than the Egyptians... and, in some parts of the world, is still present. That does not change my belief that is absolutely wrong and should be fought wherever and whenever it occurs.

I understand that you've been raised in a culture dominated by the white male. I understand that they have the upper-hand. And ya know what? I think that's wrong... and I will fight for YOUR right to access to better things. Do you really have a problem with "socialized whites" fighting for civil rights? Do you really have a problem with people who fight for YOUR equality just because they're white? We're saying it's wrong to favor any race, any gender, any sexuality... including you. It doesn't matter if we're white. We're using our influence to help those less fortunate. What else can we do?

I absolutely reject "tradition" as any reason to deny someone anything... be it marriage or land or whatever. Tradition can kiss my white ass. I'm going to stand up for those without a voice, even if they curse me for being a "socialized white".

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