Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein



Is our president insane?

When pushing the stimulus package he was all about bipartisanship. He insisted on creating a bipartisan bill that even Republicans could get on board with. He cut several things including things that EVERY economist agree are some of the best forms of economic stimulus like unemployment benefits and food stamps. All in the name of satisfying Republicans in the Senate. In the end it netted him THREE Republican votes between the House AND Senate and one of those 3 GOPers jumped ship to the Dems a week later.

So now Health Care Reform rolls along and he insists on a bipartisan bill again. OK... fair enough. Health Care Reform is something everyone knows we need and nearly every American wants. Let's give the Repubs a chance to redeem themselves and prove that they aren't the "Party of NO." Months into the debate and there has been no progress at all. Every single Republican in the the House and Senate STILL oppose the Bill. Many of them are guilty of starting or proliferating egregious lies ranging from taking money away from Medicare all the way up to this utterly ridiculous death panel garbage. He's even been betrayed by the man that was supposed to be the go-to guy to get Republicans behind Health Reform, Senator Chuck Grassley. In the past week Senator Grassley has not only tried to lend credence to the death panel bullshit but has now publicly stated that he will NOT vote for a bill - even if he supports it himself - unless it garners widespread Republican support. Basically saying the party comes before anything else (including the health and well being of the American people) and he'd rather kill a good bill than betray his party. At the same time he's been slamming Obama for alleged "intellectual dishonesty" (a claim he has yet to back up with any substance.) In perhaps his most disgusting move, Grassley even invoked the name of Senator Edward Kennedy in a recent Twitter war of words with Arlen Specter; making the (false) assertion that in an UK or Canada-style, state-run health system Senator Kennedy would be denied cancer treatment due to his advanced age.

And this is the great mediator, the compromiser that was going to spearhead bipartisan support for health care reform.

Yet still despite all of this we keep hearing Obama talk about bipartisanship. He even praised Senator Grassley YESTERDAY during a speech for his outstanding work on the health care reform bill. He refuses to let go of this idea of a bipartisan bill. Ignoring the fact that he doesn't need a SINGLE Republican vote to pass the bill through the House or Senate and ignoring the fact that the Party of No that he's reached out to since his inauguration continues to spew lies and half truths while slamming him and dragging him through the mud every chance they get. Yet he continues to reach out.

He reached out his hand in friendship, they responded by punching him in the mouth and spitting on him while he was down, so he gets up and reaches his hand out again. And again. And again...

So I ask you, going by Albert Einstein's definition, is President Barack Obama insane? Or is do you think there is some kind of master plan here that myself and other increasingly frustrated supports of Health Care Reform are missing? What has happened to our bastion of Hope, America's beacon of change?

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Boo-ya!
General welfare is not the same as welfare generally. It is neither necessary or proper for the federal government to force a state run healthcare program on everyone. By your "reasoning" there is no limit to what the federal government can do. You contradict yourself by saying that as I have pointed out that the constitution places limits on government and then you claim that federal government can do whatever it wants to. Do you think for example that during WWII it was necessary and proper for the federal government to place Americans who were born in the U.S.A. and had lived in the U.S.A. their whole lives in camps because their ancestors were born in Japan? Is that promoting the general welfare? Speaking of the SCOTUS they certainly have a "low threshold" regarding eminet domain. Now is seems that if one owns property someone else who can use that property to generate mor tax revenue for the government can be given that property by the government. Do you think that is what the Constitution intended? Is that general welfare? How do you define "necessary and Proper"? does that mean that congress can do anything by simply saying that it is necessary and proper? Is that your argument?

HR $
General welfare is not the same as welfare generally.

Did you read that again after you typed that? Or did you completely misunderstand the two distinct ways that the word welfare was used in her post?

It is neither necessary or proper for the federal government to force a state run healthcare program on everyone.

Seriously. Did you not go and read Johnny's thread that deals with all the lies and misconceptions being perpetuated on this topic? No one will be forced onto a state run health care system. Only people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and their minions believe that tripe.

Is that your argument?

Nice. You take her argument, discard it, and then build straw men arguments that range from eminent domain to Japanese-American detention camps, all the while demonstrating your lack of understanding. Bravo!
Don't bother Reggie; like I said, in my experience, these Paul-ites are just as insane and impossible to rationally debate with as Bible literalists. Jen just broke it down as simple as it gets but the response doesn't fit with the Gospel of Paul so it must be wrong. Reason and logic be damned.
I may heed your advice. I'm already battling an astrologer in another thread. One day I'll learn, but for now I am a glutton for punishment.
It is you who don't use reason and logic. Instead you resort to adhominems. Paul-ites? I am not a believer in the bible and thus I am not a Paul-ite, Luke-ite, Matthew-lite, Mark-ite, John-ite, etc... Where you got that at is beyond me. I don't believe in any of the gospels in the bible.

HR $
That one obviously sailed well over your head. Quit navel gazing and look up.
Ron Paul-ite..
You are naive if you think that a government healthcare system like the one that is be pushed by the messiah and his supporters will not end up putting private insurance out of business. That is their goal. Private insurance companies can not compete with government over the long run because government doesn't have to be profitable to exist because they tax to generate revenue. A private business must generate a profit. I brought up the examples of Japanese -American detention camps in order to point out why that necessary and proper and general welfare argument is a bad argument because of what it can lead to which is government doing anything it wants to. Btw, I don't listen to Limbaugh or Beck and could care less what they have to say. I recommend that you read some of the articles at Lewrockwell.com

HR $
Sigh.

The messiah? Really? I think you have made your true colors and intentions known. Rational debate is not your aim, but rather your zealous denunciations of anything Obama.

There are enough valid points to argue on the health care debate with out it being muddied by people like you.

You could care less what Beck or Limbaugh have to say, yet you parrot their messages of misinformation. Interesting.

But your main argument was the Constitutionality of government sponsored health care, ignoring the fact that we have it already (Medicaid ring a bell?) and ignoring a complete smack down by Jen in matters of the law in favor of straw men arguments. Now the argument is health insurance companies will go out of business? Move goal posts much?
Medicaid like many other programs is unconstitutional. Do you believe btw that the war in Iraq is constitutional? Do you believe that it was constitutional for FDR to round up Japanese Americans and put them in camps? Do you believe that waterboarding is constitutional? Do you believe that anything is unconstitutional? Unlike many people I am consistant. I was critical of the last administration and I am critical of the current. I am no fan of LImbaugh or Beck. You see many people are only against something if the side they oppose does it. The fact is that the current administration is doing much of the same the previous one did. Bailing out industries, keeping more troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, keeping Gitmo open etc...

HR $
Um, whether it was a 'bad' argument or not doesn't mean it's less than legal.
"General Welfare" is pretty damn hand in hand with the public receiving adequate health standards. It is the very definition, I'd say.
Likewise, I just documented one example of private companies doing very well against the government and you ignored it.
Fed Ex, UPS and a hundred other mail agencies do just find against U.S postal.

So this is what I'm seeing.
You argued that it was against the Constitution to create a government run health care system.
A lawyer came in and pointed out exactly where it was outlined.
You used the old "REAL Scotsman argument" to change the definition, (general welfare to welfare generally? Come on!) and then instated an emotive effort by bringing up Japanese internment camps...which have nothing to do with the argument, because they were formed under national security measures, not the General Welfare clause (so like the Patriot Act as opposed to seeing sick people get care.)
Then you go on to claim that private business can't compete against government, when I've clearly already given you an example of such. ..The postal service.

I'm in a place right now where private health care exists side by side with national healthcare.. and they do just fine.
Have you ever even researched your arguments before reciting what you heard on TV?
U.K has a private and national system. Hell, many countries in the EU do, too.
It sure hasn't hurt them any. All it does is insure that a woman that wants breast implants has to save money for them, but if her kid gets sick, she can get him antibiotics prescribed by a doctor without missing a car payment.

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