If in killing a woman her unborn baby is killed as well...

Charge the killer with a double murder or not?

Suppose she doesn't die but the baby does?

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I'm sure she thought of you and referred to you as her baby and her child even before you were born!

And to be clear, I'm pro-choice. I'm just not buying this whole "It isn't a human being until it's born" routine. 

I'm not asking you to 'buy' anything, but my statement is that it is not a legal human being. That is to say a fetus is not an individual of the species; it is not a person with the rights and responsibilities of personhood.

What he said.

What is your position specifically as to why the unborn baby should not be considered a legal person when considering the sentence against the person that ended it's life? I know you've stated it before but I want to understand better. Are you only saying that to protect abortion rights of women? If abortion rights had no bearing whatsoever as to how we deal with criminals would you still feel the same way Kris?

Careful, Belle - Feenstra gets angry when you don't say what he wants to hear.

No, I get angry when you put words in my mouth, attribute positions to me which I have never adopted, or make unfounded assumptions which amount to minor character assassination in place of making an actual argument.

QED

Ironic.

And my popcorn wasn't even done popping!

***POPCORN***

That sounds goood...I be back in a couple. :)

If abortion rights had no bearing whatsoever as to how we deal with criminals would you still feel the same way Kris?

Yes. If no other rights were attached to this issue, I would feel the same way.

A fetus lacks the level of autonomy, self-interest, self-awareness or general understanding of consequence or potential to carry the rights of a legal human being or appreciate their absence. While I do not believe there is a magical tipping point in which an individual does require those rights, there has to be a threshold in which the law recognizes their existence. Birth represents a number of changes to that offspring's condition most notably that its existence is no longer dependent on the mother. The rationale under which we allow a mother alone to make certain decisions no longer holds true and the baby has to be treated more as an individual human being.

"Yes. If no other rights were attached to this issue, I would feel the same way."

Exactly. The question is important regardless of any legal cases which may or may not hinge upon its answer.

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