If in killing a woman her unborn baby is killed as well...

Charge the killer with a double murder or not?

Suppose she doesn't die but the baby does?

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I have far too much to do, than sit around and compare scars with you - like I said, if you ever have children, come back, we can talk.

That's true, Gregg, but that doesn't mean I have to listen. I have a history with this guy, of which I realize you're not aware.

While you may not have been addressing me directly you you absolutely referring to me and attributing a motivation to me.

While I was, as I said, addressing Feenstra, I was indeed attributing a motivation to you, which I later addressed:

"As for Dave, I believe his own comment,: 'You consider a embryo to be a person with full human rights from the moment it is conceived, while in my case, I don't consider it to be a person until it has a functioning brain/neural activity' certainly sounds like someone setting the groundwork for a defense of Roe v Wade. Perhaps he didn't use the actual title, but the implication was certainly there."

I can see how you would infer it, but my intent was to address the status of personhood. Sure that definition has implications for Roe vs Wade, but it also has implications for IVF (as I mentioned earlier) and specifically for the very laws that are under discussion. One cannot determine whether or not something is a homicide unless one first has a definition of what is meant by a person.

If a criminal attacks a woman they are trying to kill HER. that is attempted murder.

False. This why we have crimes like assault, for cases when someone attacks someone else and are not trying to (or likely to) kill them. 

If a criminal attacks a woman, for example punching her in the stomach in order to steal her purse, that would be assault. The criminal was not trying to kill her and so an attempted murder charge would be unjust. If the woman was pregnant and miscarried as a result of the punch, whether the miscarriage is considered a homicide or not, the punch is still not an attempted murder. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that causing the miscarriage in the above case is considered involuntary manslaughter. The criminal should then be charged with assault (and maybe battery, depending on the jurisdiction) and involuntary manslaughter. Not attempted murder and involuntary manslaughter.

Charge people with the crimes they have committed, absolutely. But charge them with the crimes that they have actually committed. If the sentences for some crimes are inadequate to deter future offenses, etc, then the solution is to fix the sentencing, not to charge them with crimes they have not committed so they'll get a longer/tougher/different sentence.

@Belle Rose;

"Gregg: you take me for a little girl who hasn't seen the world don't you?"

Negative Sweet Rose, I take you only as a post in cyberspace nothing more, nothing less.  I make the assumption that there are persons behind the posts I see, but I do not assume to know those persons.

I find it interesting how you can see 'justice served' by a rotating door prison system for those who murder others. And yet somehow view my personal vendetta system having lower value to 'justice served'.

Under the system you support society must put up with a serial killer and an unknown number of murders, a loss for society.  Under my system after one murder society suffers no more murders from that individual, a win for society.

Do you not see how your zeal to temporarily punish a murderer with a few years of prison life creates more suffer, pain and death for the innocent who this ex-con will come into contact with after his release in 3.5 years?

@dave g. Assault as defined most places in the US is the threat or perceived threat of violence. Battery is the actual violent act against another person. I personally think that mother and child are one until they are separated, or at the very least until the fetus is able to survive unaided apart from the mother.
@George: Yep, but there are some places where assault is defined both as threat and violent action, so in those places it would be an assault charge rather than assault and battery.

@ The Rose;

"I don't wish sexual assault on anyone."

I didn't think you were.

You're making a point I've tried to make many times, Kris. To say that a fetus isn't a person is a legal fact, not a fact like "all metals expand when heated." It's a mere stipulation which can just as easily be undone by the repeal of some law.

On the other hand, how we use language IS a fact, and we do (the majority of us) refer to fetuses as babies or unborn children. This isn't a stipulation. 

Not only is referring to the unborn as children common usage, but it reflects the way we most of us think about the unborn. I'd wager even most people who claim that the unborn aren't persons think about their own unborn as persons, in a real sense if not a legal sense.

It always seems so stilted to hear people make the case that the unborn aren't people or aren't human beings. But apparently it doesn't seem stilted to you.

I'm sure she thought of you and referred to you as her baby and her child even before you were born!

And to be clear, I'm pro-choice. I'm just not buying this whole "It isn't a human being until it's born" routine. 


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