Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 24, 2011 at 1:56am

And Marian Apparitions (the grand deception) will give impetus to the coming Union,in fact during the Marian visit at Fatima the Apparition was quote as say that "Russia will be consecrated toward her sacred heart" Thus already predicting the fall of Communion at it's inception  and eventual  union with the West.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by oneinfinity on June 24, 2011 at 3:30am

only the u.s. is the "resurrected roman empire." and it's not clear whether israel is the vassal of the u.s. or whether the u.s. is the vassal of israel.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 24, 2011 at 12:10pm

The US assimulating to Union will make it easy. "Don't tread on us"

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by William C. Walker on June 24, 2011 at 3:54pm

Michael, If you troubled to read Greek & Roman History you'd come to the realization that the biblical 'predictions' took place AFTER  the events.  It's no great trick to predict yesterday's weather.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dave Gibbs on June 24, 2011 at 4:01pm

I don't see prophecies as evidence in favor of any biblical authenticity. The oldest manuscripts for most OT and NT passages are younger than the events that supposedly fulfilled them. In addition, where prophetic symbols come into play (instead of specific place or person names), I have read the interpretations of many well educated Christians who each plugged in their own choice place/person/event/etc to show that prophecies of the bible were fulfilled.

 

Their are many prophecies in the old testament that were falsified by the old testament's own description of history. Other prophecies (such as the desolation of abomination, 666/616 and the miraculous healing, etc. that many Christians are waiting on have already been fulfilled spectacularly, except of course, that their events occurred before the oldest biblical manuscripts portrayal of them as prophecies, as well as before writings by historic Christian authors mention them.

 

In one particular prophecy, Jesus told his followers that he would return (and the calamities preceding his death would occur) "before this generation passes away" and that some of his apostles would "not taste death" before his return. We may know that the Ancient Christians had the same version of this story as us and interpreted this (the only correct way in my opinion) to mean that Jesus would return very soon (before the generation of the Apostles was gone) because ancient Christian bishops and apologists spent a lot of time trying to quell the worries of their congregations, who couldn't help notice that the people of the generation Jesus spoke to were nearly all gone. Fascinating apologetics emerged among the ancient Christians soon after Christ's prophecy failed.

 

The weakest part of Christian prophecy (imo) can be found in the gospels, when the writers misquote, misattribute, take out of context, or outright fabricate old testament prophecies to claim Christs coming and dying for the sins of the world were foretold by old testament prophecies.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 24, 2011 at 8:53pm

 Reply by Michael on February 17, 2010 at 7:39pm

Delete

Jean I truly have historical evidence that you have rightfully judged a lie.

And prophecies are being fulfilled before our eyes.

Consider this is the first time since Emperor Diocletian that Europe has had a common currency. Consider that cities of Rome and Constantinople both of which sit on seven hills remained the seats of spiritual apostasy from the fall of the Roman Empire until today as the Empire is rising before our eyes and that it's new President Herman Van Rompuy is already talking world government. Consider that Turkey is currently applying for membership to the EU at which point the Roman Empire would have risen to it's furthest extent as prophesied only to force the entire earth to worship one man who will stand in the reconstructed Jewish Temple as God. There is a remnant of Lampstands and Olive trees before the God of the whole earth who will again prophesies before the beast that recieved the mortal wound by the sword and yet lives (The Roman Empire) puts them to death in the city that is spiritually called Sodom-Egypt, where our lord was crucified.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 24, 2011 at 9:12pm

The prophecies of Revelation, have not been fulfilled in Jesus day contrary to what you say. Revelations sweeps out two thousand years of history. 

the seven heads of the beast that persecute Christian's are the historical seven family dynasties that cause Christian Martyrdom in the Roman Empire including , the Julio-Claudian, Vespasian, Septemus Severus families Dynasties. the Dynasties span Centuries. There shall be an eighth family Dynasty in the future and is of the seven. Remember Nero set Christians ablaze on Vatican hill to give light to Rome and his name does add up to 666 in Hebrew, however he is of only the first dynasty and six came after that persecuted Christians, including Vespasian who destroyed the Temple and the Sancturary as prophecied in the 9th chapter of Daniel. Daniel gives the exact number of year between Artaxexres giving the order to rebuild and restore jerusalem to the rebuilding of the city and the birth of the Messiah. "seventy weeks is determined upon this city and upon this people, to make and end of sin, to finish the transgression, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to seal of the vision and the prophecy and to anoint the Most High."(sic). the Jews used a lunar calender of 360 days. seventy weeks of years coincides exactly with the two events as prophesied in 606 B.C. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Dave Gibbs on June 25, 2011 at 6:53am

First off, the man who's name was represented by 666 (i.e. Nero) was the 6TH head of the beast, not the "first dynasty". You haven't even gotten the prophecy right just from the Bible itself.

"And there are seven kings: >> five are fallen , and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, >> he must continue a short space ."

(Note that John specified that 5 had already come and gone, and the 6th was here, and that the 7th would only continue a short space).

Read this, it will help:
http://kloposmasm.wordpress.com/tag/666/

Their are some other details that that URL doesn't touch upon. For example, the Nero look-alike imposters (in reference to the miraculous healing of the beast's wounded head), the attempt to place one of the imposters in power (under the claim that he WAS Nero), the Roman public's belief that Nero's death was a fake rumor, etc. Its not really important though, as the author does demonstrate that the miraculous healing was fulfilled. Everything in that part of revelations is documented history, and requires much less stretching or association than alternative explanations.

The author also warns the reader of the weak case for associating Daniel with revelations as though both were referring to some kind of antichrist.

That Daniel has nothing to do with an antichrist is especially clear to me when noting that the OT contains no prophecies of a coming messiah who would die for people's sins in the old testament. The idea of Christ's abolishing the law and dying for the sins of the world actually contradicts many passages of the old testament which specified that "the law [of Moses] is perfect", that the law of Moses was "eternal" and would never go away, that animal (and rarely, human) sacrifices did remove sin, etc. etc.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 25, 2011 at 9:45am

 

To fulfill the combined prophecies of Daniel and Revelation it is impossible to compress all  history into the first century as you speak. The mortal wound is not Nero  receiving a mortal wound, though a shadow of things to come, but the Beast receiving the mortal wound and going into perdition.  This only happens after all seven Beastly dynasties have ruled. Thereafter, the God Emperors that kill Christian seize with Constantine who then sees the sign of the cross in the sky with a voice saying "By this sign you shall conquer" at this point in history the Empire transforms into the Beast that look like lamb with two horns and spoke like a dragon. it  looked like a lamb because it had the guise of Christianity but it spoke like a dragon, because it imposed Orthodoxy upon the world by the sword. And its Orthodoxy was the the Trinitarian lie instituted by the Council of Nicea. The two horns of the Beast represent Rome and Constantinople, with the Latin Rite in the Western Empire and the Greek (Orthodox Rite in the Eastern Empire). This despite these Empires fragmenting into kingdoms in the course of 1500 years of history, spiritually this beast has remained alive by the Patriarchs of both Rites Ruling from Rome and Constantinople until this present day, fulfilling the prophesy of Revelation. A look at the land area of the former Empires reveal that spiritually it has remained intact with Western Europe as Catholic and Eastern Europe as Orthodox, including Russia. This in fact has fascilitated  the current reassembly into Empire under the guise of the EU which is 27 nations strong and growing. prophecy deems that the city Constaninople (Istanbul) must be a part of this Union. Turkey's application for membership is being reviewed as we speak. The two horn beast must temporally flesh out to blow life into the seven headed Beast that must ascend out of the bottomless pit as prophesied. Israel will once again be it's vassal and under it's auspices and protection, it will be allowed to reconstruct the Temple. And only later to allow its future, Fuhrer, Caesar, Kaiser or Tsar to desecrate the temple by standing in it and declaring himself God just as the Roman Emperors of Old and will cause both free and bonded to receive the mark of the beast and the number of his name in there palms and foreheads. And anyone that does not receive this mark shall be put to death.  All of this history has not been fulfilled under Nero as you speak.  There was no two horned beast in the first Century, no Christian Rome, no Emperor to set foot in the Temple, no reconstruction of the Jewish Temple and no institution of the Mark of the Beast. Your interpretation of Biblical prophecy is clearly wrong as part of the spiritual delusion that has been sent to the world such that it would believe a lie rather then the truth. all those that have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Permalink Reply by Dave Gibbs on June 25, 2011 at 6:10pm

Ancient Christian writers (including the author of revelations, imo) believed that the prophecy was concerning things which were happening then and their and existed to warn them. That revelations prophecy is a matter of history is not even questionable to me, and saying "no, this didn't mean that", then throwing your own interpretation, (while getting what the scripture itself says wrong), when the bible itself says that "prophecy is of no private interpretation", and asking us to ignore what actual Christians starting from 60+ A.D. thought, and to ignore the specifics that revelations gives which perfectly match historical events that ancient Christians themselves associated with it, is just plain non-sense.

 

Revelations was written by ancient Christians, for ancient Christians, who believed that Jesus was going to return before their generation passed away. They were not written for 21st century world-government-is-satan conspiracy theorists who like to combine prophecies and interpret themselves.

 

Instead of trying to prove the bible accurate with prophecies, you should try dealing with its problems: God's apparent approval of slavery, ethnic cleansing, rape of POWs, concubines (which Jesus did not seem to approve of), cannibalism, incest, etc.; failed prophecies that the bible itself provides evidence for; a lack of any messianic prophecies which refer to Jesus coming as a man and dying for the sins of the world in the OT; why the less changed OT repeatedly switches modes on who or what god is (one god, female god who rules the gods, etc.; why the OT get so much history blatantly wrong, etc. etc.

 

When you have better answers than the tens of thousands Christian apologists who have been trying to explain them since near the time of Christ, you should create a web site with categorical (and scholarly, i.e. each claim backed with strong evidence: quotes from ancient Jews/Christians, language specifics of the Hewbrew/Greek/etc.) answers for those curious. Until then, your approach to convincing atheists that the Bible makes true claims, has only driven some of us (i.e. me) to see Christians in an even nuttier light. I'm going to retire from this topic.

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 25, 2011 at 6:52pm

Dave,

 

Once again it is not possible to compress Revelation into  the First Century. I have given all the evidence. You can give a rebuttal point for point if you so desire, but speaking in generalizations doesn't add much. I already understand that you believe everything was fulfilled but the material that you offer is unconvincing. I have given an abridged summary of my 30 years of research. However you are free to reject it.

 Also you have not given an adequate rebuttal to Daniel accurately proclaiming the exact amount of years between the order to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and the Messiah the Prince, spoken by Daniel in 606 B.C.

Permalink Reply by Michael on June 26, 2011 at 9:06am

"That Daniel has nothing to do with an antichrist is especially clear to me when noting that the OT contains no prophecies of a coming messiah who would die for people's sins in the old testament.''

Not True:

Then they shall look upon him, whom they have pierced mourn..

His vestige was marred beyond that of any man...by his stripes we are made whole.

 

Then they shall ask him where did he receive these wounds in his hands...he shall say, this I received in the house of my friends.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 14
• 15
• 16
• 17
• Next ›
• Page