What kind of a society (sans a god) do you think we would have if everyone believed they were born bad,couldn't help but to do bad--but that it didn't matter because they would never get thrown in jail.
In my opinion--it would be and IS chaos, but it IS chaos due to the influence of Christianity which holds to the above meta theory. (sin, repent, sin, repent--repeat when necessary without consequence)
So what is your view of a society that could do whatever they wanted to without consequences.
it is not possible that there would be no consequences. That is an impossible position. Consider this for example, anyone would kill anyone, peeps would pop each other till last man standing, that is what I think would happen.
we live in a godless universe, but as social beings, our ancestors had to come up with codes that would allow them to live in groups and action without consequence wasn't one of them.
According to the "Christian code"--there are no consequences as long as you say "sorry" to Jesus. The victims of Christian crimes receive no retributive justice--except through secular laws.
Morals and ethics come from society--not religion. Christianity illustrates this very well.
There is a consequence except it follows much later once we are dead and that is eternal damnation. The problem with this kind of consequence is it doesn't lead to deterrence in homogeneously neither is there a real need for rehabilitation while we are still here which i think is it's biggest failure
No, there is NO consequence, as long as you repent--none whatsoever. Even if the myth were real, Christianity FAILS in this regard to uphold moral standards and to punish those that deserve punishment--because their Jesus forgives all who believe in him.
If you are a believer, and commit a heinous crime such as molesting a child, all you have to do is repent--NO CONSEQUENCES--and you still receive salvation. No "eternal damnation." It is the most abominable belief I know of.
I call it Christian Entitlement. Subjugation of heathens is historically encouraged.
To some extent I agree with you, but I think Paul adds a caveat when he says one is saved by grace and not deeds alone. This being the case, there is some guilt in the christian mindset that he couldn't be living according to the wishes of his god and this would be a deterrent, I don't know?
I challenge the idea that there are NO consequences. While there is a very basic, primitive version of an ethical code, there still is one. As far as people holding themselves to it, I would say it's not a fair generalization to say that they are not held to them. It is fair to say that there is a difference between behavior of those in the group and outside the group, but again I would more than hesitate to say that there are no consequences. The motivation is generally a lesser one than others, remaining moral for a reward or being good to a non-adherent in order to establish trust and convert them... There are more but those two seem to encompass the most of what drives Christian ethics.
You can build a "no consequences" situation utilizing "god will forgive me" but you can also do that with any worldview. The heinous crimes are examples of SOME people using that idea to excuse or justify bad behavior, but not ALL and it's not an example of ALL people within a group not holding each other accountable but SOME people within a group not holding someone in leadership accountable. There are many different sects and denominations and all have fairly different views on how a Christian should behave, and some would actually more than frown on someone molesting a child and turning around, asking for repentance and then doing it again. Many understand that repeat offences tend to mean something along the line isn't working, in fact I am willing to go so far as saying most Christian people would want to hold a child molester responsible for his actions.
Further, Christians are like THE major proponents for the death penalty... No consequences?
It is interesting that you stated Christians would want a child molester held responsible for their behavior, or a murderer put to death for their crimes-- but their god does not. I find that bizarre.
It brings up a court room scene in my head, with a child molester pleading to a judge, saying how sorry he is, and that he will always believe in the system and follow the rules and never do it again--so the judge gives him absolution. We all know that does not work in real life--only in fairy tales.
someone has obviously never read the bible! that is not what christians believe.
before you criticize a religion at least get it right! look up heb10:26-29. ill sum it up for you since you obviously do absolutely no research before you make outlandish statements.
it says If we deliberately CONTINUE SINNING after we have received Knowledge of the Truth, there is NO longer any sacrifice that will cover these Sins.
basically. believing and loving jesus is not a license to sin. and if you do. all bets are off.
I totally agree with you! That is one of my favorite passages!!
Now, go tell that to the BILLIONS of Christians around the world that continue to "sin" KNOWINGLY--and ask Jesus to forgive them. Apparently--they don't feel the same way. In fact, most will tell you that those passages refer to apostates or "unbelievers."
Constantine (basically the "founder" of this religion) however, was probably very aware of what these passages represent, which is why he was not baptized until his deathbed. Someone should have reminded the Catholic church before they started the Mafia and allowed all those priests to get away with so many heinous crimes.... I guess none of them are going to paradise...lol.
Christianity is all about sinning and repenting--which is how they get people to keep coming back to church. So basically, according to what is written in the bible--they are all going hell.
Also, I presented two links in which I point out the two inconsistent and contradictory positions stated in the Bible, it is this inconsistency and contradiction that leads to the Christian "double bind."
One last point, the passage that you have cited is one of the passages that I use to show Christians that according to their own Bible, that it is possible to be perfect, that is, to be without sin--Thus in an effort to force them to see the double bind and to awake from their sleep!
I still dont think you understand the point of christianity. we all sin. we are all sinners. EVERYONE. and everyone is held to their own accountability. if someone doesnt know any better, then they wont be held to the same accountability as if you knew you shouldnt do something and did it anyways. and its not my job to judge athiests, jews, gays, or even christians. that is Jesus' job. there are no perfect people. PERIOD. Jesus was the only person in human existence that lived without sin.
jer 17:9 "the human heart is the most deceitful of all things and desperately wicked." we are all foul in the eyes of god.
people who consider themselves christians are no better than anyone else. sometimes they are worse. but the reality of it is, only jesus decides who the true christians are.
oh and btw. constantine was NOT basically the founder of the religion or even close to it. jesus is the founder of the religion.
my impression is that you have felt judgement from people who consider themselves christian. (which is not reflective of the bibles teachings) so it isnt fair to blame the bible or the religion for actions that contradict those of the teachings. that would be like if there was a corrupt police officer and you went around saying that the idea of the police force is corrupt... no, that corrupt cop broke the rules of the police force. the rules are good, the people are not. and the church is full of people that god is working on.
basically. better to criticize the individual than the religion. im willing to wager that you have passed far more judgement on christians than they have on you. (not judging tho lol)
when i was an athiest, and trust me, i was a bigger anti-christian than anyone i have ever met, i thought the same way you did. i was probably a little more combative and aggressive tho. many athiests have their favorite scripture that they use to try to win arguments. but taking scripture out of context and applying modern day meaning to the words is not an accurate way to depict a religion or to make a general statement about a group of people.
if you want to shut christians up forever, i suggest you dig in, study, and really try to understand the meaning of the books of the bible. specifically the new testement.
Cameron--I cannot help but to lol just a little bit. You see, I am a professor of philosophy and religion, and have taught it at university level for 15 years. I was once a Christian myself--but knowledge, logic, and the ability to use them has convinced me otherwise.
Now, as for Jesus starting a church--
Many mainstream Christians mistakenly believe that Jesus was the founder of their religion, and that he founded it when he told Peter to build his church on "this rock," (Matt. 16:18) but Catholics have admitted this is not the case, as the evidence points away from this belief.*
I have no problem with people having faith--as long as it is faith in the right thing. Christianity, from my experience, and from looking at the experiences of the world at large, is definitely NOT the right thing. I am sure you are wondering why, so let me tell you. It is because of your belief that, as the bible states:
"jer 17:9 "the human heart is the most deceitful of all things and desperately wicked." we are all foul in the eyes of god."
You see, when people are taught from the beginning that they are dirty filthy sinners, they are more likely to act like "dirty filthy sinners." However, if you teach people that they are perfectly capable of making the right decisions the first time, they are responsible for their actions, and they are not innately "bad"--well, they are more likely to do the right thing the first time. This is logic.
Now, the world is FULL of Christians who believe they are innately bad--and what are the consequences of that? CHAOS. Yes, we live in a chaotic world full of people who believe they are innately bad and cannot help but to be that way--because of your religion!! This is my biggest beef of all.
Furthermore, I suggest you read more on the subject, and I suggest that you read the book I recently completed on the subject of the consequences of christianity, which can be found here:
I welcome your comments...;)
*Lives of the Popes, McBrien, p. 25