What kind of a society (sans a god) do you think we would have if everyone believed they were born bad,couldn't help but to do bad--but that it didn't matter because they would never get thrown in jail.
In my opinion--it would be and IS chaos, but it IS chaos due to the influence of Christianity which holds to the above meta theory. (sin, repent, sin, repent--repeat when necessary without consequence)
So what is your view of a society that could do whatever they wanted to without consequences.
I agree--but in the case of religion--namely the Christian/Mormon religions, I think it is more insidious than that. I do not even think they had hallucinations. I believe it was all a giant scam made by some of the best con men ever.
Stupidity is believing everything you hear, and the funny thing is, is that the bible tells people:
“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” Proverbs 14:15
It seems to me that there are not too many "prudent people" within Christianity.
I agree completely about Mormonism - but you have to admit, as con games go, Smith went to greater lengths to pull his off than any single individual I know of in history. Writing an entire book was a Herculean effort, without any guarantee of success.
Constantine I, being king has a huge advantage, but that guy is why so many worship the cross today.
Constantine was both a murderer and a tyrant, and if it were not for his search for absolution in the afterlife, Christianity may not have flourished at all.
It was because of him, and all the other "liars for Jesus" that came after him that helped create the chaos that is the world today.
RE: "Some people believe there is another testament to Jesus Christ too." - I'm not clear what you mean, Val - there were many other testaments to Yeshua (his real name), but only 27 made it into the orthodox compilation, none of which were written by any who actually knew the man, if he ever, in fact, existed.
"Matthew" was the Greek name for Levi, the tax collector, that the NT tells us Yeshua accepted as a disciple, yet whoever wrote the "Gospel According to Matthew," copied the Gospel of Mark, in some cases, word for word - the REAL Levi would have had his own story to tell, from his own perspective, and had no need to copy anyone. "Luke" was a Syrian physician, who followed Paul, and had no occasion to meet Yeshua, while James, who is assumed to be James, son of Zebedee, the fisherman, never claims to be, and in fact, is the only one of the four who tells an entirely different story of his meeting with Yeshua, and it has nothing to do with the Sea of Galilee, fishing boats, or making anyone "fishers of men."
Many, many other Yeshua stories emerged, some saying he was all human, that the "Holy Spirit" entered him at baptism, then left him on the cross. Others say he was fully divine, and only pretended to suffer pain, whereas actually, he felt nothing. The choices of the 27 books were purely political.
The laws of physics would have to be suspended.. for every action has its reaction.
But just for the fun of it lets say that we lived in a society without any laws.... I think that 'laws' would eventually evolve out of a society that started without any... pretty much like they already have.
I've only read the first page of this thread so far....
There would be no society. There would be no jails, no buildings, no books, no anything. Society wouldn't work, couldn't even happen, without our evolved intelligence which led to "ethics and morals" (however currently defined).
Animals too have their own codes of ethics and morals, which is additional proof that societies themselves form their own moral codes. However, if we all lived by the Christian view, in that we are all "dirty filthy sinners" and cannot help but to do bad things, but it's still ok because all we have to do is say "sorry" and all is forgiven--we have chaos.
Without consequences there is chaos, and when Christians and others continue to live as "dirty filthy sinners" thinking they can get away with it--that does nothing but undermine our society. The point of this post was to illustrate that fact.
Of course.. this is the difference in Paulism and what Jesus supposedly said in the Sermon on the mount..
Pauls preaching was MUCH easier to do... Trying to live up to the sermon on the mount was just too hard.
Do you think thats why paulism took over christianity?.. because it was easier to sell?
Yes, I do. Paul made it so easy with his "easy grace" approach, and not having to follow the laws of Yahweh. This led many followers to engage in all sorts of debauchery--which eventually led to Paul backtracking a bit and saying that believers can do everything, but not everything may be good for them. This hasn't helped our situation, as now we are stuck with a society filled with people who believe they are innately bad, can do whatever they want to as long as they say sorry to Jesus. Why should they even say sorry I wonder when Paul already said "everything is possible" for them? It is a contradiction, and it is a paradox.
Let's put what you said,
"Then such a society would also be ignorant of the notion of the good."
in a Christian context--which was really the point of this discussion. So, Christians believe that their god is "all good," yet their god is guilty of genocide (the flood) murder, (killing of all the first borns) sexism, misogyny, and host of other heinous actions. If this god is considered "all good" then genocide, murder, sexism and misogyny would be considered "good," i.e., murder would be considered good. This of course means that there is no real standard for what is good if their god can kill, etc., and still be considered "good." I would argue that it is because of this type of standard that many humans have no qualms about killing, sexism, etc. If it was good enough for their god after all....
It is interesting what you said about the animals, as many species exhibit the same moral behviors that we do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality I believe this is so, because they too live in societies and must follow certain rules in order to coexist with one another, and when they do not cooperate, in many instances they are banned from the "tribe," or worse.
I agree. Societies themselves define what is "good." At one time Christians thought slavery was "good" and keeping women barefoot and pregnant was "good," and sacrificing babies was "good."
Thank goodness times have changed...but there is still a long way to go.