What kind of a society (sans a god) do you think we would have if everyone believed they were born bad,couldn't help but to do bad--but that it didn't matter because they would never get thrown in jail.
In my opinion--it would be and IS chaos, but it IS chaos due to the influence of Christianity which holds to the above meta theory. (sin, repent, sin, repent--repeat when necessary without consequence)
So what is your view of a society that could do whatever they wanted to without consequences.
That's never been a problem for me, where Unseen is concerned.
I see what Cathy is saying - she's saying that if you are truly a Christian, i.e., you completely buy into the entire Christian doctrine, then you must feel COMPLETELY absolved once you've confessed and been forgiven. If you still feel guilt, then you can only believe the absolution didn't take, in which case, one must question the degree, or lack thereof, of your belief.
And you can't eat shellfish or wear clothes of mixed fabrics - nobody follows the bible to the letter so we have to be talking about imaginary people.
Right on (for a change).
When I was an xian they told me that if I sinned and then confessed, the guilt would be gone.
And you know what? It was gone.
Sometimes I very quickly sinned again.
I felt at risk only after the sinning and before the confessing.
Case in point --
Yes, if this sin wasn't masturbating, or having impure thoughts or something any secular person wouldn't feel was a sin. What kind of sin are you talking about, Tom?
Psychopath or idiot. Take your pick.
Unseen - I agree. A Christian has the choice to apply common sense and humanity. I think there is a problem with vagueness and bureaucracy in the doctrines which allows people to twist it if they wish - see the recent case with Chrissy. I find that almost 100% of the time, atheists only see religion from the outside and not from the inside, from a transformed heart. The same appears to be true of many religious people. All they get is the words and not the experience. They can be diverted away from the real point by all the confusion.
If I "sin", then basically it damages me, my life, and my world. I am left with the uncomfortable feeling of not having done my best, and with the consequences with other people. This makes me less of a person, and unless I can face it, I become shifty and evasive. It teaches me how to do things badly instead of growing into a better person. Then there is the guilt like you say.
This makes it a form of suffering, and like all suffering, may be learned from and overcome and turned into something positive. However, it's not a desirable way to get learning.
What is sin? Sometimes it's obvious, a violation of some well-known rule. Other times, it's harder to decide, and something is what it is.
My Christian friend wanted to apologize to my sister for annoying her, and said she was willing to "take a beating" in the process. (She's a real man.) That comes from knowing what you are talking about. I don't recognize all this stuff about getting away scot free, I think it's an intellectual game, and any Christians who take advantage of that notion are charlatans.
No,actually the bible itself is inconsistent and contradictory, which lends itself to, as you said, "vagueness and bureaucracy in the doctrines which allows people to twist it if they wish."
As logic points out, when you have contradiction, you can conclude almost anything. Hence, the confusion.
While you say you do not recognize it, it is quite apparent in our society. Why, when the majority of Christians does something wrong in our society they fall back on the old adage, "I'm only human" making reference to the notion of original sin, or being born bad, and therefore, they can't help themselves. Why, almost every time a Christian is caught in the public eye committing a sin, they shout for all to hear, "Forgive me!! I'm only human!!" We've heard this from the likes of Jimmy Swaggart to Eddie Long, and it goes all the way back to Augustine and the Nicene Council, as the Christian philosopher Pelagius pointed out.
As I said before, the feeling of guilt and the notion of forgiveness requires a sense of responsibility. But now we get the double bind from the Christian bible and the Christian doctrine that we are responsible and we are NOT responsible for our actions!!
"Forgive me!! I'm only human!!"
What's wrong with that? It's exactly what I'd want them to say. I'd also want them to examine their own hearts.
What's wrong with that is the consequences we must all pay for those that believe they cannot help but to do bad things because, well, the are "only human!!"
Do you get it now? We may be human but we can choose to do the right thing the first time. The Christian view of human nature is false--but it is obvious that many Christians and atheists alike buy into this false view of human nature.
You subsist on a parody based upon (a) pathological psychopaths-posing-as-Christians (e.g. Swaggart) in the news and (b) those very few Christians who bother to apply their particular sect's theology obsessively.