What kind of a society (sans a god) do you think we would have if everyone believed they were born bad,couldn't help but to do bad--but that it didn't matter because they would never get thrown in jail.
In my opinion--it would be and IS chaos, but it IS chaos due to the influence of Christianity which holds to the above meta theory. (sin, repent, sin, repent--repeat when necessary without consequence)
So what is your view of a society that could do whatever they wanted to without consequences.
Yes, you are exactly right. I am using the Christians own definition to prove a point. That is, given it's own standard, it leads to a greater tendency of "moral laxity."
Now we can move away from the notion of sin. The standards that one holds can be the result of holding to different Normative Ethical Theories, which generate direct moral rules. Hopefully this is accomplished through a dialectical process.
Please read my comment above on moral objectivity.
As for your assumptions, and that's all they can be called, see my earlier response to you, above.
She's creating a "what if" scenario, to prove a point.
Again, you are quite right, and I thank you for pointing this out. Offten times people fail to understand that I am only creating a "what if" scenario for the sake of the argument and to prove a point.
I would also add that Judaism and Christianity and Islam with it's "modesty" bull-crap that stems all the way back to the garden of Eden has created this "sex for fun" is evil or "naughty" attitude and the result is all these perverts who get off on being ashamed, just like ole Adam and Eve. They know they will be forgiven, lets face it, jesus loves prostitutes the best. When people says Christians are just as good as anybody, they have no reference what a world without all that bull crap would have been like. We are all in it up to our frikin heads. Who settled America, the PURITANS. Where were all the Epicureans when we needed them?
edit: yes..hangs head down low..i'm still an angry atheist, goddammit!
It is very interesting though to read some of the comments Christian missionaries made about how good the so called Native Americans were in regards to the Christian's own standard of morality--stealing, adultery, and murder, for instance.
Another example is the Christian notion of having dirty thoughts and the Abrahamic notion of "modesty" as you have pointed out. Then picture a culture where women and men walk around almost nude and yet by Christian standards moral laxity was significantly less in those cultures.
Foucault makes a similar point to yours in The History of Sexuality volume 1 and volume 2.
I read something very interesting about native Americans, especially the Aztec culture. War to them was mostly symbolic. When two tribes went to war, a token amount of damage was allowed and then a call for peace was made and things got settled. The Spanish invaders had no such morality. Nope, when the game was supposed to be over, they kept on killing. The Aztecs were so shocked that they were easily defeated by a vastly inferior force. Plus those giant deers that frothed at the mouth. Their own religion helped do them in as they blamed themselves and their gods for the catholic scourge.
Since you mentioned it, I would like to recommend a book to you that goes into detail as to how the "Christians" massacred Natives in North and South America by the millions--in such ways they are almost unfathomable. The book is called "Americal Holocaust" by David Stannard. Below, you will find an excerpt from said book:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties, the more cruel the better, with which to spill human blood. They build a long gibbet, low enough for the toes to touch the ground and prevent strangling, and ganged thirteen (natives) at a time in HONOR OF CHRIST OUR SAVIOR and the twelve Apostles. When the indians were thus alive and hanging, the Spaniards tested their strength and their blades against them, ripping chests open with one blow and exposing entrails, and there were those who did worse. Then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive. One man caught two children about two years old, pierced their throats with a dagger, then hurled them down a precipice."
Christians have proven themselves to be some of the most brutal humans on the planet--and their religion teaches them that it is "ok" because, well, they were "born bad." Oh--how I HATE this religion!!
"When the white missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."
-- Desmond Tutu --
The same thing happened in America, where the reservations were put on some of the most inhospitable land in the country. Except in Alberta (where I was born) there are some reserves that are right on top of oil--which they have the rights to. Most reserves however, are in abject poverty--what the white Christians did to the Native Indians and the Africans truly is a disgrace.
CHIEF DAN GEORGE , CANADIAN INDIAN CHIEF & film director, 1910-?: "When the White man came we had the land & they had the Bibles, now they have the land & we have the Bibles." (source)
Either Chief Dan George or Desmond Tutu is a plagiarist.
Thanks Cathy, I'll check it out. The plight of Native Americans is one of the most interesting historical topics..The "ghost dance" story is beyond sad. Your posts got me all "fired-up" again. I suffered in catholic school all the way thru High School. I KNOW first hand what those people are all about.
I am happy to hear that. It is only when people are "fired up" that change can occur, and if we want this world to survive--we need change. We need positive change.
Letting go of myths that promote the idea that humans are "born sinners" and cannot help but to do bad things is a step towards this goal.