Hey guys!

So my parents (who are Christians) and I just had a huge debate about the supposed "truth" of Christianity, homosexuality and reasons for belief. I'd love to hear some rational opinions about some of the points they made (which I wholeheartedly disagreed with). Feel free to pick any points you'd like to discuss. Here they are:

"When it comes to homosexuals, I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. The human body is not designed to have sex with someone of the same sex. That's why God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."

"The Bible has PREDICTED the fall of Israel, it has also predicted an event in which the sky went black and there was fire, but no scientists had an explanation for what happened."

"There have been people diagnosed with incurable cancer and the doctors had no idea what it was but the person prayed and they were cured."

"Evolution doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense how there was one organism, an amoeba or whatever, that just divides and evolves into different species. And where did that come from? There has to be a creator."   <---This is one where I brought up circular reasoning. Also, can someone provide some good sources for abiogenesis for me? I admit I had a hard time explaining this one (and they simply don't understand the process to begin with).

"I've read bits about other religions, Islam, Shintoism etc and they just don't make sense to me the way the Bible does."

"The Bible does not condone slavery or rape or any of those things. When people read that stuff they read it out of context, but when you read the rest of the chapter it actually makes sense."

"People always ask 'Why did God create Cancer?' - well God didn't create cancer, cancer is just something that's part of man's existence. But either way he allows it so that people can learn to be closer to God. People always bring that up when it comes to suffering kids, but God has a reason why he does certain things."

"People are all born into sin. Babies are a product of their sinful parents so it's up to them to repent when they become familiar with the word of God."

"What people need to understand is that not everything in the Bible is supposed to be taken literally. A lot of it is figurative."

"Sure there are people from all different religions, but the Bible says that they'll all be introduced to the word of God and it will be up to them to decide whether they follow Jesus or not, but only those who follow Jesus will be saved."

"People come across tough times in their lives, particularly when they're not aligned with the word of God, but then they realize that as soon as they start to read the Bible and live by God that things start to look up. That's no coincidence."

"God sent his own son down to wash away the sins of man. Man has a choice to be sinful, God gives them free will. There's a set of laws that God sets out for people to follow and if they don't, there are consequences."

"What I know is that the disciples who spoke to God were the ones who wrote the Bible, actually, Moses was one of the only people who was PROVEN to have seen God, but their word is good enough for me. "

(---____---')

Tags: Adam, Bible, Christian, Christianity, Deuteronomy, Eve, Exodus, God, Rape, Slavery, More…debate, knowledge

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They actually were the ones that started debating with me. It started with my mom accusing me of "not liking God" and asking whether I believed or not. I proclaimed that I was agnostic (easier for them to process than me straight out coming out as an atheist) and then the floodgates opened. I'm not trying to sway them from their beliefs, but I do want to educate them on facts - I can't let the statements that they made go uncorrected (especially the whole frog turning into a human thing).

Reesie, I find the best way to approach evolution with those who don't believe in it (since you don't have a couple of million years for them to watch something actually evolve), is to ask them to look at dogs, that we humans, not nature, over about 30,000 years, evolved from captured wolf cubs. The ancestor of even the tiniest Tea Cup Chihuahua was a wolf.

I think the correlation between the Tea Cup Chihuahua and the wolf will throw them off completely. I'm thinking of demonstrating it in the simplest possible way I can think of:

Put a glass of water on a table (the initial ancestor), then in front of it place three empty glasses. Pour some of the water into each glass (the transition of developing species that share said ancestor). Move each glass in to separate locations.

In location A, the water in one of the glasses needs to turn red to survive (insert food coloring here and watch the gradual progression of the color as it turns red).

In location B, the water in the 2nd glass needs to turn green to survive (insert food coloring here), in location C, the water in the 3rd glass needs to be blue to survive. Now you have 3 different colors (species) but they all share the same ancestor (the water in the original glass). 

I think a 5 year old could understand it that way, no?

RE: "I think the correlation between the Tea Cup Chihuahua and the wolf will throw them off completely." - Really?! Where do you think they would say Tea Cup Chihuahuas came from.

I personally think your water glass analogy would go over their heads, they sound like they need something more concrete.

So, sorry, no.

They may argue that it's still water.. so still "like kinds". 

That said it may be easier to bring out the family album to show how traits can be passed down from generation to generation. Which is the basis for evolution. Only instead of being passed down for a couple generations, evolution references many many generations.. Hundreds, Tens of thousands..hundreds of thousands.. more than enough time for what started as a small change in on individual to spread to the entire species. 


you may want to show them this.. http://i.imgur.com/oAnfA.jpg it may help their understanding some. Assuming they're not color blind. LOL

""When it comes to homosexuals, I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. The human body is not designed to have sex with someone of the same sex. That's why God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.""

Do they realize that Eve would be the same biological material as Adam and therefore would be his sister...? After all it doesn't say that God changed their genes, only their sex. Come to think if, that would make Eve transgendered. Adam's identical twin, but of a different sex. 

That aside, I take it they aren't aware that God changed a group of sinners into homosexuals as punishment..? 

Romans 1:20-28 

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to dowhat ought not to be done.

So in that sense... yes, he did make Adam and Steve and Madame and Eve

""The Bible has PREDICTED the fall of Israel, it has also predicted an event in which the sky went black and there was fire, but no scientists had an explanation for what happened.""

It predicted the fall of Babylon. Not Isreal, that I can tell at least. 

Isaiah 13

13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation:neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.


It also predicts satyrs dancing there in the ruins.. Somehow I don't think that ever happened. 

"""There have been people diagnosed with incurable cancer and the doctors had no idea what it was but the person prayed and they were cured.""

If the doctors had no idea what it was.. then how does anyone know it was cancer..? 

""Evolution doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense how there was one organism, an amoeba or whatever, that just divides and evolves into different species. And where did that come from? There has to be a creator.""

Evolution is influenced by the environment, genetic mutation and natural selection.Those dictate, if you will, the changes. For instance, we know that lions hunt impala.. Lions go after the sick, the lame and the slowest. That means the healthier faster ones survive to pass on those traits to their young. Most traits either detrimental or don't effect anything at all, at least not right away. For instance, those who get sick easier, die sooner and don't breed so those traits get passed on. Blue eyes is a mutation that doesn't benefit humans one way or the other.. yet it is also passed on. But if a giraffe is born with slightly longer legs which allows it to reach higher leaves and also run faster, that would be beneficial and it would passed on to it's offspring. It would take several generations before it spread into the rest of the population. Assuming something didn't eat it first.. 

""I've read bits about other religions, Islam, Shintoism etc and they just don't make sense to me the way the Bible does.""

Of course they don't, because they (your parents) were raised where Christianity is dominate. So it makes sense.
It's like what Richard Dawkins said "If you were born in Israel, you’d probably be Jewish.
If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you’d probably be Muslim.
If you were born in India, you’d probably be Hindu.
But because you were born in North America, you’re Christian" 

""The Bible does not condone slavery or rape or any of those things. When people read that stuff they read it out of context, but when you read the rest of the chapter it actually makes sense.""

So where is says in Leviticus about selling your daughter isn't about selling her into slavery? Not to mention Leviticus 25:44-46. 

""People always ask 'Why did God create Cancer?' - well God didn't create cancer, cancer is just something that's part of man's existence. But either way he allows it so that people can learn to be closer to God. People always bring that up when it comes to suffering kids, but God has a reason why he does certain things.""

Well, God does say he created evil.. and cancer can be considered evil. And if God created the universe and the world, then it does stand to reason God also created cancer and every other disease known to man. 

""People are all born into sin. Babies are a product of their sinful parents so it's up to them to repent when they become familiar with the word of God.""

If people are born into sin, then what was Jesus dying on the cross about? 

""What people need to understand is that not everything in the Bible is supposed to be taken literally. A lot of it is figurative.""

So then which parts are to be literal and which ones figurative..? Was Noah figurative or literal? 

""Sure there are people from all different religions, but the Bible says that they'll all be introduced to the word of God and it will be up to them to decide whether they follow Jesus or not, but only those who follow Jesus will be saved.""

I'm sure those other religions would say the same or similar at least.. 

""People come across tough times in their lives, particularly when they're not aligned with the word of God, but then they realize that as soon as they start to read the Bible and live by God that things start to look up. That's no coincidence.""

I've never needed God for things to look up. I'm sure others feel the same way.. and a good number of them would be atheists. LOL

""God sent his own son down to wash away the sins of man. Man has a choice to be sinful, God gives them free will. There's a set of laws that God sets out for people to follow and if they don't, there are consequences.""

So God sent Jesus down to wash away our sins, but yet gave us free will to sin if we desired. What's the point of washing away sin, if you're going to allow it to happen again? No different than the Great Flood in that respect.. 

""What I know is that the disciples who spoke to God were the ones who wrote the Bible, actually, Moses was one of the only people who was PROVEN to have seen God, but their word is good enough for me. ""

My mom said something close to this to me some time ago. I told her that not once is it say any where in the Bible.Not to mention that no where is it said that only one person wrote those books. For example, Genesis is accepted to have been written by Moses, but there's an issue there. He couldn't have written it in it's entirely as it talks about his own death. Would be odd for God to say, ok now you're going to write about how you die.. 
My mother's reply to my assertion that the books were not written by who their named after was something to the extent of "Well, you might want to tell the theologians that.." .. and I said " I would imagine they already know... " 

This may help with your debate! Good luck

The link doesn't work for me, Roger. :(

Reesie - you might want to bounce in and announce to your parents that today, February 12, 2013, is International Darwin Day! Maybe you could Photoshop and print them a card! Feel free to use this as a background:

It's true! Look it up!

Laughs - as far as I am aware, there is no instruction in the bible to "disapprove" of anything.  It's either love... or slaughter.  More like a badly made video game where the rules are inconsistent.  But the point remains.  Disapproval is a form of judgement which is against the so called teachings of the bible. 

Reesie, have you thought about arguing this from the opposite perspective?  Like why your parents don't support the Westboro Baptists?  What would a conversation look like when your parents decide they do not want to be associated with the WBC?  They would have to argue against the 'godhatesfags' preachers, and that might give them pause for thought.

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