Hey guys!

So my parents (who are Christians) and I just had a huge debate about the supposed "truth" of Christianity, homosexuality and reasons for belief. I'd love to hear some rational opinions about some of the points they made (which I wholeheartedly disagreed with). Feel free to pick any points you'd like to discuss. Here they are:

"When it comes to homosexuals, I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. The human body is not designed to have sex with someone of the same sex. That's why God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."

"The Bible has PREDICTED the fall of Israel, it has also predicted an event in which the sky went black and there was fire, but no scientists had an explanation for what happened."

"There have been people diagnosed with incurable cancer and the doctors had no idea what it was but the person prayed and they were cured."

"Evolution doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense how there was one organism, an amoeba or whatever, that just divides and evolves into different species. And where did that come from? There has to be a creator."   <---This is one where I brought up circular reasoning. Also, can someone provide some good sources for abiogenesis for me? I admit I had a hard time explaining this one (and they simply don't understand the process to begin with).

"I've read bits about other religions, Islam, Shintoism etc and they just don't make sense to me the way the Bible does."

"The Bible does not condone slavery or rape or any of those things. When people read that stuff they read it out of context, but when you read the rest of the chapter it actually makes sense."

"People always ask 'Why did God create Cancer?' - well God didn't create cancer, cancer is just something that's part of man's existence. But either way he allows it so that people can learn to be closer to God. People always bring that up when it comes to suffering kids, but God has a reason why he does certain things."

"People are all born into sin. Babies are a product of their sinful parents so it's up to them to repent when they become familiar with the word of God."

"What people need to understand is that not everything in the Bible is supposed to be taken literally. A lot of it is figurative."

"Sure there are people from all different religions, but the Bible says that they'll all be introduced to the word of God and it will be up to them to decide whether they follow Jesus or not, but only those who follow Jesus will be saved."

"People come across tough times in their lives, particularly when they're not aligned with the word of God, but then they realize that as soon as they start to read the Bible and live by God that things start to look up. That's no coincidence."

"God sent his own son down to wash away the sins of man. Man has a choice to be sinful, God gives them free will. There's a set of laws that God sets out for people to follow and if they don't, there are consequences."

"What I know is that the disciples who spoke to God were the ones who wrote the Bible, actually, Moses was one of the only people who was PROVEN to have seen God, but their word is good enough for me. "

(---____---')

Tags: Adam, Bible, Christian, Christianity, Deuteronomy, Eve, Exodus, God, Rape, Slavery, More…debate, knowledge

Views: 1079

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Give them this:

Scientific evidence for God's existence

The following is a compilation of all scientific evidence for the existence of a god.
Tumbleweed.gif
 

LOL because "science can't explain everything, that's where faith comes in."

Those are flying spaghetti monsters, aren't they? See, science once again proves the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

Once I was debating the existence of god with a friend. She said pain is the result of god giving humans free will. I asked her where is free will when an infant is raped? Silence...

Many Christians accept god allowing such atrocities is okay in the name of free will. For fuck's sake, that is the most disgusting ridiculous way of thinking.

Exactly, and the fact that they don't realize this just makes it worse. Every single Christian I've spoken to has brought up the "free will" argument in regards to why their god allows such atrocities to happen. Seems to always favor the free will of the bad guy, doesn't it?

"When it comes to homosexuals, I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. The human body is not designed to have sex with someone of the same sex. That's why God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."

First, and most importantly, there was no Adam and Eve. So was the body 'designed' for oral sex between couples of opposing sex? Guess they need to stop driving since cars were designed (by people) to be driven by people... not people designed to drive cars. Also, kind of hard to hate sin, when there's no such thing. As for the allusion that males needing females, what about species can reproduce asexually?

"The Bible has PREDICTED the fall of Israel, it has also predicted an event in which the sky went black and there was fire, but no scientists had an explanation for what happened."

And it also says that the stars shall fall from the sky like figs from a tree. Apparently the all knowing create of the universe has no idea what a star is. It also says that bats are birds rather than mammals. Anything the Bible is said to predict usually ends up being mundane, false, or is twisted and turned by believers to try and make it look like it kind of fits.

"There have been people diagnosed with incurable cancer and the doctors had no idea what it was but the person prayed and they were cured."

Spontaneous remissions happen. Sometimes for known reasons, and sometime unknown reasons. So what if they prayed and were later cancer free? What about the vast majority that pray and are not cured? I'm guessing they are going for the power of prayer claim. Well, there was a test where they had three tests. 1) Not praying for patient. 2) Secretly praying for patient. 3) Openly praying for the patient so that they knew they were being prayed for. Test one and two had a similar recovery rate. However test three resulted in a slower recovery rate that the others... probably because of the added stress of knowing everyone is praying for you, so you think you must be pretty bad off (thus extra stress).

"Evolution doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense how there was one organism, an amoeba or whatever, that just divides and evolves into different species. And where did that come from? There has to be a creator."   <---This is one where I brought up circular reasoning. Also, can someone provide some good sources for abiogenesis for me? I admit I had a hard time explaining this one (and they simply don't understand the process to begin with).

Sounds like they have a poor understanding about evolution since it is concerned with populations and not one single individual. As far as abiogenesis... I had read a model had been successfully replicated in the lab, but we still don't know exactly how it happened, or if it happened like we think is most likely. But that is obviously no reason to throw our hands up and give up. If we gave up and gave the supernatural the explanatory power we would never have created flying machines, harnessed electricity, or basically any scientific advancement you can think of. Just because we don't know now, doesn't mean we'll never know. Good job bringing up the obvious problem with their argument. If there had to be a god to create everything, who created that god, and who created that god, and who created that god (repeat ad nauseum). If they claim that something always existed, isn't it more likely that something simple always existed (like the universe or the matter/energy it's comprised of) rather than some deity of infinite complexity?

"I've read bits about other religions, Islam, Shintoism etc and they just don't make sense to me the way the Bible does."

Were they brought up Christian? If so, that's noting more than personal bias. Someone brought up in Shintoism would say that the Bible doesn't make sense if they read it as a Shinto believer. Also, they must either have a very low threshold for 'making sense', or your parents haven't read the entire Bible (at least not with an open mind).

"The Bible does not condone slavery or rape or any of those things. When people read that stuff they read it out of context, but when you read the rest of the chapter it actually makes sense."

They are wrong. They fully believe that the Bible is this happy wonderful story with no flaws. When something that challenges that preconceived notion comes along they suddenly claim it's out of context or that part is not literal. The vast majority of the time, that argument is just plain wrong. The Bible doesn't have a problem with slavery, places women as second class to men, allows concubines, allows polygamy, rape, endorses genocide, and the list goes on and on. One huge problem for the Bible is that it contradicts itself so often that it's rather staggering. It says to live your neighbor, but it also says to hate your parents, spouse, children and friends in order to be a disciple of Jesus. It says not to kill, but it also commands to rip open the pregnant women of your enemies and to dash the children on the rocks.

"People always ask 'Why did God create Cancer?' - well God didn't create cancer, cancer is just something that's part of man's existence. But either way he allows it so that people can learn to be closer to God. People always bring that up when it comes to suffering kids, but God has a reason why he does certain things."

Such a non answer it's laughable. We know things that cause cancer, and sin isn't one of them. And how is cancer supposed to bring anyone closer to god? Thais just in! Spinach brings you closer to Popeye the Sailor Man! Bad things happen, and so do good things. It's probability, not a test. We just tend to remember the bad things more, because we don't like them and want to avoid them. Also, if the Pope is the infallible voice of god on Earth, how come they get cancer too?

"People are all born into sin. Babies are a product of their sinful parents so it's up to them to repent when they become familiar with the word of God."

I'm sorry, but there's no nice way to say it... This is bullshit!There is no sin or transference of anything 'sin like'. The idea that a newborn baby is somehow born guilty of the misgivings of past generations is absurd. If a child is born from a parent that committed a murder, should we throw this child in prison to finish 25-30 with his father in prison? Is a child born being a stamp collector just because their parents are? Are children born with their parent's collective knowledge? If the parents favorite band is the Beatles, does that mean that the child will be born with the Beatles as their favorite band rather than gravitating to the popular music of their own youth?

"What people need to understand is that not everything in the Bible is supposed to be taken literally. A lot of it is figurative."

And how does one decide which is which? Remember, there are parts that were once said to be 100% literal without any question. Then science came along and showed that a literal interpretation is wrong beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt. Suddenly the church says that part is now figurative. The Bible reads like a primitive book by primitive people with a primitive understanding of the world. When the church tries to claim parts are now figurative (when the whole book was originally claimed as the direct inerrant word of god), all they are doing is to try and save face and preserve the flock in the face of absurdities they once clung to being exposed as false.

  "Sure there are people from all different religions, but the Bible says that they'll all be introduced to the word of God and it will be up to them to decide whether they follow Jesus or not, but only those who follow Jesus will be saved."

So belief is more important that good acts? As disgusting as that idea is, this claim has already failed. People died before Christianity was invented. They were never 'introduced' to the 'word of god'. Even today there are remote civilizations that have never heard of Christianity. Every day, someone that has never heard of the bully religion known as Christianity. Claim = failed!

"People come across tough times in their lives, particularly when they're not aligned with the word of God, but then they realize that as soon as they start to read the Bible and live by God that things start to look up. That's no coincidence."

Yes, yes it is.Tough times happen to believers just as often and believers in other religions, and those without religion. What would your parents say about someone finding Islam and that discovery leading to a better life for them? The sad part is that the belief in a religion sometimes acts as a way to focus the energies that they already possessed, thus transferring credit to a religion rather than themselves as deserved. There is also the community aspect. Help and support from others can be helpful in both tangible means, and well as mentally. But that doesn't come from a god. Secular support groups help people with drug and alcohol problems. A group of friends can help a buddy with relationship problems, with employment advice, and any matter of issues without the need to give credit to an imaginary deity. Also, what of my story? I had a relatively quite life as a believer, yet all the best events of my life have taken place since identifying myself as an atheist. If some god is trying to tempt me back into the fold, he's doing a rather piss poor job.

"God sent his own son down to wash away the sins of man. Man has a choice to be sinful, God gives them free will. There's a set of laws that God sets out for people to follow and if they don't, there are consequences."

First we'll look at the fact that there is no contemporaneous evidence outside the Bible for Jesus' existence. That said, I personally believe that he was probably based off a teacher of the time, but one that was very human and void of divinity. Over time (especially in those times) the story was embellished. Again, there is no 'sin'. Also, the idea of free will is contradictory to the claim that this god is supposed to be omniscient.

"What I know is that the disciples who spoke to God were the ones who wrote the Bible, actually, Moses was one of the only people who was PROVEN to have seen God, but their word is good enough for me. "

Too bad that every Biblical scholar you talk to will tell you that none of the books were written by who they are attributed to, and even then they were written far removed from the events they are supposed to be recounting. Also, the Bible was put together by committee. Parts were thrown out, others revised, and more were added. And please explain to me how it was 'PROVEN' that Moses saw God when the very existence of any god or Moses himself remain unproven?

I hope that these answers help. All I can tell you is to stay strong, pick your battles and keep thinking and reading. It may be tough now, but you are not alone, and it will get better eventually. Especially once you are able to start your life on your own (assuming you still live at home). Remember, you are not as alone as you think. Maybe try looking on meetup.com to see if there are any local atheist groups you can meet with and bounce ideas off of as well. Could help with feeling you're isolated.

Cheers!

I could easily write a book on this subject.  Someday I just might!

I would suggest that you stop taking the defensive stand of these issues and go on the offense.  Each of these statements indicate stands by your parents that need to be shot down.  They are not only wrong, they are offensive.

I'll use your first statement as an example:  To love someone, you must respect them.  The problem with Christians saying that they love the sinner but hate the sin is that in practice, they never respect the sinner.  This indicates they don't love them.

As a responsible human being, I respect that some people in this world are born with an affection for members of the same sex.  I believe they have the same rights (Constitutional or otherwise) as I do.  My problem with Christianity is that Christians can not and will not offer the same respect.  Because I this, I believe it to be immoral to call myself a Christian.

Each one of these statements can be counteracted the same way.  AND THEY SHOULD BE.  A superstitious support of Isreal that exceeds the boundaries of logic?  That's just wrong.

Science explains how people can be cured because of hope (placebos) and that's great.  I'd rather believe in science than placebos.

Evolution is used constantly by scientists to save peoples' lives.  Much more frequently and with greater support than any miracle healings.

Anyone who believes the Bible makes sense has been raised within the culture that accepts Jedeo-Christian principals.  At any given time, any Christian is obeying less than 25% of the commands in the Christian Bible, so what makes it so important?  It's just an arbitrary set of rules that can be picked and chosen from to condemn those not like you.  There is mountains of evidence to support this.

The greatest minds of Christianity, like John Calvin and Martin Luther, condoned mass killings of those they considered heretics.  Are your parents greater than the greatest minds of Christianity?

I'm just saying that we Atheists have nothing to run from.  Truth is on our side!

Dataguy, I agree with moving from the defensive stand to the offensive stand.  And like you Dataguy, I agree that these arguments need to be addressed.   But Reesie, I think you need to determine what your end goal is going to be...  Are you interested in converting your parents, or are you interested in having your parents understand that you have good reasons to be an atheist?

Because of how common Confirmation Bias and Belief Perseverance is in human beings, the task of convincing your parents will be exceedingly difficult. Especially since they aren't even settled on matters of Christian doctrine, and seem all over the place.  A singular deductive argument, or even 12 will not topple the mountain of inductive reasoning they use to support their belief in why the bible is inspired, and why Christianity is the true faith.  That goes back to belief perseverance, which is characterized by belief in something after the original reasons for believing it have been proven false.  (It is a common human behavior, practiced by theists and atheists alike.)

My advice is to focus on being able to articulate why you don't find the Christian faith convincing for yourself in the personal way that lead to your deconversion.  And I would also work on learning good answers for why people shouldn't find the Christian faith convincing.  Now I am very picky about what arguments are good and not.  Many of the arguments out there are pretty bad and based on misunderstanding the religion and so on.

I have found one particularly good individual who rarely makes a bad argument against Christianity or the Bible as Christians understand it.  He is on Youtube and he goes by Darkmatter2525.  He presents his arguments in a comical and irreverant manner, but if you can have the patience to look carefully at what he is saying, the content is dead on accurate and devastating.

The arguments you are placing up here that you want to fight are terribly difficult battles to wage, because they create so much room for the belief perseverance and confirmation bias common in humans defending a position that expecting religious people to hear you out fairly gets even dicier.

This is why I like the idea of going on the offensive.  Pick out devastating points, and just nail home with them.

You could point out how monstrous the middle eastern deity Elohim actually is.

Brutal, vain, and cruel.

Ask your folks if they would ever treat any of their children half as bad as god has treated his.

If the answer is no then they are better than their god and it is not worthy of their worship.

Given the tales it would seem god is more of a demon.

It would appear that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was not convincing the world He himself was not real, but convincing the world there was ever such a thing as a benevolent god.

"Why should I allow that same god to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown his own?"
-- Bertrand Russell --

LOVE me some Bertand Russell!

"When it comes to homosexuals, I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin. The human body is not designed to have sex with someone of the same sex. That's why God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."

Men and women share 2 of the 3 possible orifices. All of which are approximately penis sized.

"There have been people diagnosed with incurable cancer and the doctors had no idea what it was but the person prayed and they were cured."

They also undertook a range of different therapies. This also doesn't rule out random chance and placebo effects.

Evolution doesn't make any sense.

Yes, it does.

It doesn't make sense how there was one organism, an amoeba or whatever, that just divides and evolves into different species

Yes, it does... that's pretty much how evolution works. One organism gives birth to other organisms which are all similar to the original organism, but some are different.

And where did that come from?

We don't know, there are some fascinating hypotheses if you care to search for them. In any case, this has nothing to do with evolution.

There has to be a creator.

We don't know -> therefore, God. By that same logic, we are all murderous astronaught accountants.

The Bible does not condone slavery or rape or any of those things.

Well, that's how it reads.

When people read that stuff they read it out of context

Please, tell us how global infanticide can be taken out of context.

People always ask 'Why did God create Cancer?

I've never asked that because I don't believe in God.

God has a reason why he does certain things.

What possible reason could he have for the current state of the world?

People are all born into sin. Babies are a product of their sinful parents so it's up to them to repent when they become familiar with the word of God.

Nobody is born having done anything wrong. Religion pours all the guilt crap on them at a pretty young age however.

What people need to understand is that not everything in the Bible is supposed to be taken literally. A lot of it is figurative.

Oh good, which parts are which? how do you tell the difference? Why are gays an abomination but eating shellfish is ok now?

the Bible says that they'll all be introduced to the word of God

When? How? I call bullshit!

People come across tough times in their lives, particularly when they're not aligned with the word of God, but then they realize that as soon as they start to read the Bible and live by God that things start to look up. That's no coincidence.

I call bullshit here too, got any peer reviewed scientific studies of this phenomenon? no?

God sent his own son down to wash away the sins of man.

You said before, children are born with sin... inconsistant much?

There's a set of laws that God sets out for people to follow and if they don't, there are consequences.

I know... now go to McDonalds on sunday and kill all the workers. They are working on the sabbath.

their word is good enough for me

Is their word worth more than mine? God spoke to me last night, he said you should give me all your money and property.

Thanks, that was fun.

RSS

Support T|A

Think Atheist is 100% member supported

All proceeds go to keeping Think Atheist online.

Donate with Dogecoin

Forum

Christian to Atheist. My Testimony.

Started by Toby Briggs in Welcome to Think Atheist. Last reply by captain kingsway 8 minutes ago. 1 Reply

Videos

  • Add Videos
  • View All

Services we love

We are in love with our Amazon

Book Store!

Gadget Nerd? Check out Giz Gad!

Into life hacks? Check out LabMinions.com

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

© 2014   Created by Dan.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service