Hey everyone, so in the spirit of equality and supporting homosexual marriage I recently shared this picture on facebook:

Sorry I don't know how to re-size this.

Anyway, my brother had this to say:

"This really is a strawman falacy becuase (most of) those who are against homosexual marriage are also against infidelity, pornography, "no-fault" divorce (or irreconcilable differences), and excessive spending. So really, (most of) the people who are against homosexual marriage would also be against the actions listed above.

Also, (most of, or maybe just many of) the people against homosexual marriage realize that it is not homosexual marriage that destroys the institution of marriage, but it is immoral (sinful) lives that destroy marriage. To many of these people, marriage is not a government or civil institution, it is a physical representation of a spiritual truth. Marriage is the symbol of God's love and desired relationship with humans. Since God ordained marriage, many people expect marriage to be congruent to what God deems correct.

There are other politcal, sociological, scientific, and philosophical reasons to disfavor homosexual marriage, but ultimately they take a back seat to the spiritual reason.
" (Oh and then his wife "liked" the comment he left)

As you can guess I really want respond to this but I have no idea what to say without sounding like an asshole (don't know why I bother considering) and I don't want to just delete the comment or ignore it because I feel like that would be somehow admitting defeat or something. So what do you think?

Tags: Xian, assholes, homosexuality

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I saw those and laughed my ass off. 

This really is a strawman falacy becuase (most of) those who are against homosexual marriage are also against infidelity, pornography, "no-fault" divorce (or irreconcilable differences), and excessive spending. So really, (most of) the people who are against homosexual marriage would also be against the actions listed above.

Let us weigh "are" vs. "would be". Currently there are multitudinous laws, protests and lobby groups concerning same-sex marriage which is not legal in the majority of states. Is the same true for any of those other things? No, not really. In principle, he may have a bit of a point, but in practice he really doesn't. In practice same-sex marriage is discriminately and disproportionately attacked while the other issues are let slide. Is inconsistent moralizing really a good defence?

"To many of these people, marriage is not a government or civil institution, it is a physical representation of a spiritual truth. Since God ordained marriage, many people expect marriage to be congruent to what God deems correct. There are other politcal, sociological, scientific, and philosophical reasons to disfavor homosexual marriage, but ultimately they take a back seat to the spiritual reason."

The United States Government Accountability Office lists 1138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. None of them mention God. That's because the framers of the Constitution not only disallowed "the spiritual reason" a front seat, they evicted him from the vehicle entirely. He was left behind and was last seen standing by the roadside with a big frownie face back in 1787. 

I wrote:
"Also, could you tell me what "other politcal, sociological, scientific, and philosophical reasons to disfavor homosexual marriage"? Please be specific. And you are telling me that you equate infidelity, pornography, etc with the love that two people share? How are they morally the same to you? Two people wishing to commit to each other for the rest of their lives seems, to me, to be the opposite of someone cheating on their spouse. But maybe that is me.
"I have no intention of carrying on such a long discussion here." Why then would you post a disagreement to my original meme? Just to say that you did? Please do me a favor in the future and don't. "... marriage is a spiritual issue at its core, certainly not political." For you it is. But not for everyone. Every marriage is different and based on different things. My marriage is based on the deep love and commitment Sam and I share for each other (and our awesome dog). Saying that marriage is spiritual at it's core is like implying that all marriages not based on spirituality are not valid. As for me using memes to lighten the mood, I thought it was fitting considering that it was a meme that started all of this."


My brother posted:
"I posted a disagreement to your original meme because it was about your original meme. Your other memes carried the topic elsewhere. I do not mind keeping on topic.Marriage has absolutely no foundation without the spiritual meaning. Why do humans have the institution of marriage? There is no scientific, sociological, or philosophical demand for marriage. Sure science, sociology, and philosophy can give good reasons for marriage, but there is no necessary need for marriage. Only the spiritual reason can make marriage necessary. If we were to only use science, sociology, or philosophy, then marriage could break down at any time and be defined in any way one would like. You used philosophy when you said it is based on a deep love commitment. Well, love comes and goes (as we humans know quite well). Based on that, one could create and leave a love commitment any time one wants. Therefore, marriage is always possibly temporary; there is no need to stay in a relationship if one does not want to. It is because of this philosophical thinking that we have so many "no fault" divorces.I do not equate infidelity and pornography with homosexuality. They are all wrong, but on different levels. Just because someone "loves" another person, it does not make it right. What if I were to say I love (his wife), but I also love some other girl? Would the former love be right? Should I be allowed to marry the other girl? If love is the only thing that makes a relationship correct, then there should be nothing wrong with that. However, it is not "love" that makes the difference. It is God's defining of love, and what we should love, that makes the difference."

Sorry about any weird formating problems. I'm doing this on my phone and it's weird.

Is your brother slow?

Sometimes I really think so. But if you were to ask him...let's just say that modesty is not a problem for him.

Marriage has absolutely no foundation without the spiritual meaning. Why do humans have the institution of marriage? There is no scientific, sociological, or philosophical demand for marriage. Sure science, sociology, and philosophy can give good reasons for marriage, but there is no necessary need for marriage. Only the spiritual reason can make marriage necessary. If we were to only use science, sociology, or philosophy, then marriage could break down at any time and be defined in any way one would like. [...] However, it is not "love" that makes the difference. It is God's defining of love, and what we should love, that makes the difference."

So according to your brother, the foundation, necessity, and definition of marriage is beyond the ken of science, sociology, and philosophy. A supernatural being with magical powers makes all the difference and is providing supernatural backing for your brother's position. On this, we are all wrong and he is right, but he is unwilling or unable to elaborate to support his point so he merely restates it. 

*Laughing*

You would think supernatural backing would be a little more robust. 

We could add to this, at least here in the Netherlands, that homosexual couples adopt the unwanted and unloved children of hetro relationships at a rate more an double hetro married couples. We are just over three times more likely to adopt a child with a disability or chronic illness that has been discarded by a hetro couple than married hetro couples. We also currently have a lower divorce rate than hetro couples though personally i think that this figure will even up in time.
Regards,
Judith vd R.

"Wilhelmus van Nassauwe, ben ik van Duytsen Bloed, Homo's en Lesbos doen het bij ons best wel goed!"

Sorry, couldn't help myself.... misplaced patriotism I guess. I do love the idea that people can overcome the hatred and bigotry within society and proof to the world what they are, regardless of the incessant bitching and complaining about "the gays".

Oh that is fantastic!

Tell him that homosexuality happens in nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals) It is actually quite common. Also ask him if he knows the history of marriage. Generally people who claim this don't know what they are talking about. Marriage is not a religious thing. It was used to make peace between feuding families and to expand the empire of a far more powerful family. There were other uses as well, but lets focus on these two. Marriage is not a social institution any more. It has evolved from that. Before religion hijacked marriage it was more of a kind of treaty between two feuding parties (that doesn't really happen any more so that's thrown out the window). Marriage today is (meant to be at least) a loving (and sometimes financial) bond between two people who love each other. If a gay married family are harder workers, raise more successful kids, and are better citizens why shouldn't they be allowed to get married? What is the social damage in them getting married? If your brother says because then everyone wants to do it, swiftly call him an idiot and ask if he would want to marry another man simply because someone else did it.

Hey Amanda: I really admire you. You GO GIRL!!! Not only is this awesome, it's really great that you are so forthright with your beliefs against people who are...well...your family. I think it's one thing to stand up to a friend or a co-worker, but to respectfully try to engage with people who are that closed minded takes some patience and courage. I don't have any real solid suggestions for you because I've not been in your shoes, but I just wanna say you're awesome :)

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