How to debunk: "The universe itself is my proof... it wouldn't be here without God"

All I can think of is:

"Its an argument from ignorance"

"Give me one logical reason why the universe needed a creator to exist?"

How would you debunk this argument?

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Hello Hank: Yep, that's right. Theistic arguments that existence necessarily must have a creator fail for the reasons Hume critiqued Aquinas and that Tobin noted in his article.

1. And which of the many creating gods and spirits would that be?  Whatever makes you think that it has to be your version?

2. The brain is very imperfect and prone to gullible errors of attribution based on early learning.  Your argument is a case in point.

3. What makes you think that the universe had to be created by a sentient being with a personality that is remarkably human? Why couldn't it have been created by a mindless force?

4. Do you know of anything that has intelligence, intent, memory and personality - and no physical brain?  How could a brainless personality exist? 

5. If the universe was created in order to make a home for humans then why is 99.999 percent of it lethal to humans?  And why is it that the planet earth, the Milky Way and the entire universe will eventually be totally destroyed?

6.  You won't be here for more than a few more minutes if a near star explodes and sends a burst of gamma radiation on an intercept path with the Earth.  Our solar system is moving around the galaxy on a path that will cause it to wobble to the to top of our galaxy arm and thus be exposed to the lethal radiation at the center of our galaxy.  This will kill all life on earth in seconds. You won't even have time to ask a creating god why it made it that way. 

I'm normally not one to disagree with fellow board members Rosemary, but in this case, I must make an exception.

You stated, "How could a brainless personality exist?" The fact that "W" survived birth and made it all the way to the White House is proof that it can happen.

pax vobiscum,

Hello Rosemary: Nice to meet you. I'll play angles advocate and try to offer typical Christian responses to your points>

1) I know my god made reality because of the inner witness of it's Holy Spirit. That sensus divinus defeats all arguments against the existence of my god.

2) Because the brain is imperfect and subject to gross error then naturalism cannot account for logic, induction, reason, morality or the uniformity of nature. But these exist and so must be evidence for my god. 

3) See number 1.

4) My god is an immaterial consciousness without substance but with pure essence. I know this because of number 1. As to how this can be: its magic.

5) Because that's the way my god wants it to be.

6) A very good reason for you to repent and accept the salvation freely offered to those believe the mandatory faith propositions. Please read, recite and honestly intend the sinners prayer and adopt either the Apostles, Athenasian, or Nicene Creed.

There. How was that? Does that seem remotely like a typical Christian response to your points?

It nearly always ends up being a circular argument, and if the usual reasoning doesn't work then your wasting your time. I had this argument with my brother the other day and he just refused to listen to logic. He just kept saying that the universe couldn't have come from nothing and then refused to listen when I tried to explain the origins as we know it. Most theists just use the usual bullsh*t about there being nothing before the big bang and there must be something, how can the universe expand into nothing etc. 

Honestly I usually don't bother with this anymore because their just to ignorant to take in fact and say that science is all just theory, etc. 

Hello Sean: if you want to reach your brother, then you have to offer him something to replace the emotional comfort and support he gets from his religious faith delusions. Use your knowledge of what makes him tick to identify his button to press that will make him say "Huummm?".

Krause of course, and others, demonstrate amply that the universe could have spontaneously generated from nothing, but not necessarily that it did. Others contend that at one point, everything in the universe was compressed into a singularity that somehow reached critical mass and exploded, which would certainly imply that there was something before the BB to compress, but since all time, of which "before" is a part, was locked up in the singularity, we can never know what, if anything, was beyond that point. I can't imagine we'll ever be 100% certain, but unlike theists, most of us are OK with that.

None of which, of course, suggests a supernatural being had anything to do with it - if the universe had to have a creator, so did any gods that may have created it, and when theists can tell me how their god was created, I'll be happy to discuss the universe with them, but first things, first.

pax vobiscum,

So far I'm liking Universe From Nothing. The first three chapters are a review of the history of modern cosmology, development of relativity and quantum physics. Krause is a good writer who makes these otherwise esoteric subjects accessible to lay persons.

Robert --

Have you seen Krause's video? A good watch -

pax vobiscum,

I think if someone said that to me, I would say "wow, do you get heaps of shit from religious nutters from having a surname like 'God'? Your parents must hate you"

:) funny - LOL - :)

There are indeed many schools of thought on this... and there are many great thinkers who have weighed in...and given forth their opinions...  some of them are assembled in this article which is truly outstanding  Does God Exist? Mysteries of the Universe Unraveled   ....  to get opinions from all vantage points...  all walks of    life...


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