How to debunk: "The universe itself is my proof... it wouldn't be here without God"

All I can think of is:

"Its an argument from ignorance"

"Give me one logical reason why the universe needed a creator to exist?"

How would you debunk this argument?

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Well, theists make so many absurd claims without evidence - someone has to challenge all the nonsensical claims or we would all be zombie theists lacking an ability to think freely and critically.

And trying to prove something so obviously true that there shouldn't be anyone stupid enough to still be believing it.

Well, if theists would stop making false claims, we wouldn't need to keep rejecting them. Very few people go around trying to demonstrate how claims that space ponies are false as no one is claiming that space ponies want humans to behave in a certain way or constructed the moon out of oats.

Hah yes, you're right, spending time actually thinking about religion and arguments that people of faith present is silly.  I mean why would we want to be able to actually discuss the merit of such arguments?  From your perspective they're just inherently correct, right?  Considering scientific findings that have withstood tests to maximize conclusions of causality and objectivity takes so much time and energy.  So not worth it, we should just rely on what other people tell us, our own observations, and rationalizations that people like us confirm.  Thank you so much DP, your trolling has absolutely convinced me that arrogance, ignorance, and blind faith are much easier paths to take.  *phew*

Guys, didn't you read the sign?


Thank you.

Sir or Madam: these sorts of conversations are not much fun without competent theistic apologetically inclined opponents.  

Hello DP: The God of Neo-Platonism that was adopted as the Christian God sometime in the first few centuries (probably 2nd century after the Bar Kokhba war) of the common era has be proven non-existent for many centuries. Consider this ancient argument composed as a syllogism.

1. To believe that a theistic creator deity exists, the believer must imagine their deity was in some timeless fashion akin to "before" existence alone in a timeless, non-spatial, void, without matter, energy, location, dimensions, fields, concepts, knowledge, symbols, perceptions, physical natural law, logic, or referents. And that it then wished existence to instantiate.

2. Consciousness is an axiomatic irreducible primary process that at the most common denominative rung on the ladder of complexity consists of awareness of existence.

3. Consciousness of consciousness necessarily requires primary consciousness to first obtain as awareness of existence.

4. Prior to existence there could not have been anything to be aware of.

5. Without anything to be aware of, there could not have been any awareness.

6. Without awareness there could not have been any consciousness.

7. From 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 there could not have been a primordial consciousness prior to existence.

8. Creator gods are defined as primordial consciousness.

9. From 7 and 8 Creator gods cannot exist.

To attack (3) a theistic apologist must show that it is possible for consciousness to occur as an immaterial essence without substance. No one can do this for obvious reasons. Thus this argument works against any version of belief that the God of Classical Theism exists including Vedic polymodalism.

Shame on you Robert, asking DP to reason - that's not what Fundies do best --

pax vobiscum,

It's obvious you've never of James Randi or Harry Houdini, then... 

Good points. As infants and young children our brains are still developing and establishing contextual patterns at an unconscious operational paradigmatic schema. When parents are religious fanatics, as mine were, they indoctrinate and inculcate religious themes into their offspring's minds with emotional traumatic significance. In adult life the person seldom ever gets free of those early childhood emotional fractal contexts that color how they relate in stressful or emotionally stimulating circumstances.  (I'm still in therapy working to overcome my early religious child abuse.)  

Indeed, and what about all the animals god created having to kill each other and EAT EACH OTHER ALIVE just to survive.

I mean what kind of sick, preverted creator would come up with such a blood thirsty environment for the children he supposedly loves, it's insane.  

How can a person willingly delude themselves to believe all the religious nonsense?

Whoops, here I go, don't get me

Lmao! I know what you mean; in my last couple of posts I climbed high atop my soapbox (it's something I feel strongly about), lol! It's become something I'd seriously like to devote the rest of my professional life to (to contribute to the complete downfall of mythology)... Which is why I'm going to school. :-)


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