A friend of mine is a pretty die-hard Christian (shock horror, both of his parents are missionaries/vicars) and he often posts little sayings of some kind or another on Facebook, which I usually ignore. However, today he posted something that really irritated me for some reason:
"The more I look at science, the more in awe of God I become."
And just to make that worse, one of his Christian friends commented "Boom" as if he had made some kind of infallible argument. Somehow, I feel as though nothing I say will make any difference because they must be incredibly deluded already to believe that God just "invented" science. Basically, this is the guy who thinks he's a "modern and intelligent" Christian by saying that things like Noah's Ark are "just stories and aren't meant to be taken seriously by Christians". But if that is true, then why take ANY of the Bible seriously and where does he draw the line between stories and (what he believes is) the truth?
In the past I asked him and his friend where the evidence was. He claimed science (yes, seriously) helped prove Christianity and that Christianity was about "opening yourself" to it and believing, and then you "feel God" or whatever. How do you argue with someone like that??
What do you all say to religious people (not necessarily just Christians) who claim that science is just an invention of God? Is there a specific way to argue with someone who twists everything to awkwardly suit modern day thinking?
Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously.1 It seems there will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel ofJesus Christ than those who have never heard.2 Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.3 Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.4 The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)
A further indication that the judgment of God is based upon what we know and what we have been given can be seen in a warning by James:
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1)
In other words, those who know the gospel, study it, and teach it will be under stricter judgment, since they have the ability of guide others, or lead them astray. Jesus, in the parable of the Master and the slaves (Luke 12:41-48) talked about the difference in judgment between those who know the will of God vs. those who do not know:
"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. (Luke 12:47-48)
Strict Calvinists say that God chooses only some people for salvation, while damning the rest to hell. However, the Bible indicates that God wants all people to be saved and none to perish.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Although God would want that all be saved, He doesn't force anyone to spend eternity with Him. So, all must freely make the choice to seek after Him or reject Him.
There is one particular class of individuals that certainly go to heaven even though they haven't accepted Jesus as Savior. The Bible makes it clear that infants and children who die go to heaven on the basis of their inability to fully understand the difference between good and evil and make a rational choice.5 It is likely that older individuals who are, likewise, unable to choose because of a mental disability, go to heaven without the requirement of having to directly choose Jesus as Savior.
Do people have to know the name "Jesus Christ" to be saved? Many people do not know that "Jesus" is not the "real" name of the Savior. His real (Hebrew) name is "Yeshua," which is usually translated into the English as "Joshua." The Greek transliteration is "iaysous." In fact, in three verses of the New Testament (Luke 3:29, Acts 7:45, and Hebrews 4:8), iaysous is translated into the English as "Joshua," since the text refers to the Old Testament saint. In addition, the word "Christ" is not Jesus' last name, but His title. The Greek word "christos" (translated "Christ" in the English) means "Messiah," the "anointed one." This is why the New Testament letters often refer to Jesus as "Christ Jesus," which means "Messiah Jesus." Other languages have different pronunciations of the name of Jesus. However, God is able to understand whom we are talking about and save us no matter what we call the name of the Savior. In addition, Job, from the Old Testament, was saved even though he did not know the name of the Savior.6 Therefore, although it is true that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven,7 you don't necessarily have to know His name to get there.
Does the fact that people do not need to know the exact name of the Savior mean that Christians should not evangelize those who have never heard the gospel? When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, He commanded them to "make disciples of all the nations," which has been called the Great Commission.8 Although it might be possible for people to be saved in the absence of knowing the gospel, it isn't likely to occur in very many instances. Therefore, it is important that Christians proclaim the gospel as much as possible. Since we don't know if any particular person knows the gospel, sometimes we seem to be a little pushy. If you are a non-Christian, please don't take it personally. We are not trying to annoy you, but genuinely want you to experience the peace of Jesus Christ and join us in eternity.
I know there are many Christians who say that all those who die without faith in Christ will be relegated to spend eternity in Hell - even if they have never heard the gospel. I think scripture suggests otherwise - that we are judged on the basis of what we know and how we act upon it. This is not any sort of ecumenical theology or "all ways lead to God." Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience.2 Therefore, atheists are still without excuse8 in rejecting God. Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience. In the same way, those who play the "religion game" of going to church on Sunday, but living apart from a relationship with God, will be condemned.9
Richard's been busy with the cut and paste feature on his 'puter all night.
It saddens me to see a grown man flail around in a mental fog....NAY, it doesn't...:D
yeah sorry i am too busy to type it all.
If only we could cut and paste those articles into our heads. We could then cut and paste our replies as well.
Richard's been busy with the cut and paste feature on his 'puter all night. It saddens me to see a grown man flail around in a mental fog....NAY, it doesn't...:D
@ Gregg R Thomas: LMAO. Poor guy.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
There's a reason we say the Bible is full of contradictions.
I like the fact that you don't have a personal opinion about anything, and instead have to copy paste verses from the bible and other books. You're like a monkey that learned to communicate with humans by holding up cardboard signs with words on them. Whenever you're pushed into a corner you resort to quoting your cult myths. The bible is not a body of work you can reference. Any of my professors would've given me an F had I quoted the bible as a reliable source in any of my reports; just as if I had listed Harry Potter as a reference for why magic and witches are real.
is.gdCrunchbase: is.gd is a company (Consumer Web), acquired by Memset. →
You can't claim free will after setting out a group of rules and threatening an eternal barbeque for not following them - true free will doesn't involve punishments.
How can you claim free will for poor old Pharaoh in Exodus, when your own book says your god hardened his heart?
Richard, justice is all about right and wrong, what you deserve is what is supposed to be.
If we are all supposed to be in hell, why does a perfect being like God have desires opposite of what is actually supposed to be? A perfect God would not desire anything other than what is supposed to be because he would fully understand why something is supposed to be.
That means the incarnation, the cross, salvation ect are all a game, because if something is already "supposed to be" why do you have to play gymnastics like all those things to just put what is supposed to be in place? It is completely unnecessary. It isn't just to exploit legal loopholes that violate the intent of the law, and plus he made the law after he knew the consequences, so he created the problem.
And you can't say you as a Christian ever was supposed to be in hell, because obviously God thought you never were supposed to be there.
I kind of like that, John.
Thanks Strega. I think that the best way to address Christianity is to take on its most core claims. Without this atonement justified, Christ has no reason for being, and Christianity falls.
Though I don't want to use this too much, because normally I am not in the business of deconverting people. Sometimes they annoy me though. Plus I want to put it in a book eventually. I can tell this Richard character is not a humble loving Christian, so I don't feel bad dropping this one.
Why act like a sheep Richard. You seem to be saying that a fictional book of tribal myths, no more real that the myths in the Illiad or Beowulf; this book having been translated from multiple languages not contemporaneously by various translators (men) with questionable aptitude and purpose, and vastly edited by men, all of whom have been fallible humans; has some legitimacy and accuracy for us to use it as a prescription for our lives?
Grow up. Fiction is just fiction. If we were to believe everything we are told in books we would have billions of impossible creatures moving about amonst us from Marvel superheroes to Norse ice giants.
There is no hell, no heaven, no god, no devil, or angels,nor any number of supernatural (i.e. unreal) creatures you believe in.
If it is evil when you have the power to protect a tortured child and in your belief, your god allows that child to be tortured, then your god is necessarily evil in your own view every day. Either that or your god has no power.
So which of the only 3 possible answers is your god? :